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Author Topic:   What's Best Reconciliation of Gen 1 and 2 You've Heard?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 307 (82498)
02-03-2004 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by q3psycho
02-03-2004 3:50 AM


So, what you're saying is that it's a contradiction just like the "twins paradox", the International Date Line, and the Casimir Effect?
The difference between those contradictions and the contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2, however, is that those other contradictions have explanations. You've provided none.
If God wants it to be Tuesday on Wednesday or to have light while there is darkness - there is no contradiction in this.
I don't understand why not. Just because he's God, we're supposed to suspend sense? Maybe this is why the Bible turns off a lot of thinking people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by q3psycho, posted 02-03-2004 3:50 AM q3psycho has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 307 (82804)
02-03-2004 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by q3psycho
02-03-2004 6:41 PM


Your argument appears to be "I'm confused by science, and I'm confused by Genesis 1 and 2, so they must be the same thing."
I have a pointy-haired boss that I'd like to introduce you to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by q3psycho, posted 02-03-2004 6:41 PM q3psycho has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by q3psycho, posted 02-03-2004 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 307 (82895)
02-03-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by q3psycho
02-03-2004 7:47 PM


Remember - you need faith.
Circular reasoning. You're explaining how it's not a discrepancy by asking us to assume that it's not a discrepancy. That's bogus, faith or not. Faith is not the opposite of reason, my friend.
The ideas weren't doing so well so they invented this big bang. It covers up all of the problems. But now they can't figure out how to slow it down.
What are you talking about? Why do I have this sense that you don't know anything about cosmology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by q3psycho, posted 02-03-2004 7:47 PM q3psycho has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by q3psycho, posted 02-03-2004 11:45 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 307 (82935)
02-04-2004 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by q3psycho
02-03-2004 11:45 PM


If I lose faith then I'll be like you and say all of these things are wrong and inconsistent.
Why don't you try applying your intellect instead of your faith? I assure you it's possible to reconcile a reasonable mind with a spiritual life. Plenty of people here do it, though I personally have no interest.
The inerrancy or errancy of the Bible doesn't have anything to do with how meaningful it is as a spiritual guide. Some things are mythically true. Romeo and Juliet doesn't have to be a true story to say something true about love.
On the big bang thing, isn't it now a problem because the Universe will just expand forever and get cold?
I think you misunderstand how science works. We don't invent parts of theories to avoid outcomes we don't like. Einstein did it once and forever after referred to it as his "greatest blunder."
If the universe is going to expand forever, then that's what it's going to do. No amount of invention on the part of theorists is going to change that.
what good is a universe that can't even stay together?
What does it matter if that's the universe we've got?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by q3psycho, posted 02-03-2004 11:45 PM q3psycho has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 307 (125845)
07-20-2004 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by JRTjr
07-20-2004 12:46 AM


Geneses chapter two, on the other hand, has a different purpose, and is not a chronological account of the events.
From what part of the text do you derive that conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by JRTjr, posted 07-20-2004 12:46 AM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by JRTjr, posted 07-20-2004 3:58 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 307 (125883)
07-20-2004 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by JRTjr
07-20-2004 3:58 AM


This is kind of what I was getting at; you're not basing your interpretation of these passages on anything textual but rather your own extrabiblical interpretation.
My conclusion that it is not a chronological account of the events is based on simple deduction.
In other words, what you're saying is that if you assume that there's no contradiction between G1 and G2, there is no contradiction between G1 and G2.
That's not an argument, that's circular reasoning. G1 and G2 tell the same story, but in two different orders. There's nothing in either one of them, textually, that implies that we're supposed to take one as chronological and the other not. Moreover, the language of G2 is narrative - God says this, does that, Man has such-and-such a reaction - and narratives are inherently chronological.
Therefore, instead of thinking the author was a blooming idiot
Your assumption, of course, is that G1 and G2 have the same author. Another possibility is that these are two different but similar oral histories passed down before finally being transcripted into the Hebrew holy texts; and that there was never any expectation that these passages should be taken literally but rather, interpreted as two similar views on the spiritual origin of the Hebrew people.
The wording in chapter two does not emphatically state that animals were created before mankind; it simply references to the creation of mankind before mentioning the creation of animals.
I'm thinking that your first sentence was supposed to be "..state that animals were created after mankind..." and moreover, it does indeed specifically say just that:
quote:
Genesis 2:18-22
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
I mean, it can't be clearer than that. First God makes Man, then says to himself "damn, this dude's gonna need some help on this big planet, how about some creatures?" at which point he makes animals. At that point Man's like "dude, I'm not into 'animal husbandry,' if you get my drift" and God, at that point, makes Woman from his rib.
The text makes it very clear that God creates the animals after Man, because God creates them for the purpose of being helpers to Man. There's no other way to "easily" interpret the text - G2 is a chronological account, like G1.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-20-2004 03:26 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by JRTjr, posted 07-20-2004 3:58 AM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-20-2004 1:53 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 45 by JRTjr, posted 07-23-2004 2:11 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 307 (126030)
07-20-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-20-2004 1:53 PM


I really can't think of any clearer signal that the Bible is a metaphorical work, and not a literal historical account - how could God make it any clearer than by making it so that if you try to take it literally, you can't get past the first two chapters?
It's like a sign saying "you must be at least this insightful to enter."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-20-2004 1:53 PM jar has replied

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 Message 43 by jar, posted 07-20-2004 6:04 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 307 (126879)
07-23-2004 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by JRTjr
07-23-2004 2:11 AM


First, thank for the typographical correction.
You're welcome, but please believe me when I tell you that I've forgotten what it is I corrected, and that if I did so, it certainly wasn't done with the motive of making you appear ignorant or anything. Lord knows I make too many mistakes of my own to fault someone for some hasty typing.
Using your own logic, I could just as easily say that you assume there is a contradiction, therefore there must be one.
No, my argument is "if you assume the words in Genesis 1 and 2 mean what they say they do, then there is a contradiction."
Of course it's possible to interpret G1 and G2 in such a way as to remove the appearance of contradiction; the question is, do the most reasonable ways to read G1 and G2 individually contradict? And of course, they do.
I am sorry there’s not a single verse in chapter two that says, Hay, people, this is in order of importance, not time.
Yes. And the most reasonable explanation for that is because G2, like G1, is in order of time, not importance.
Would you say that I am contradicting myself?
It would be better if you used language like that found in the passages in question. With that in mind, a better example would be:
Statement 1: I went to the doctor, then I went to the store.
Statement 2: I went to the store, then I went to the doctor.
Those statements are indeed contradictory, because each one of them describes a sequence of events. They contradict - like G1 and G2 - because they're two different sequences.
What historical evidence do you have to support this supposition?
None, the evidence is textual. The two chapters are textually different - two different writing styles implies two different authors.
Ch2 starts off Thus the Heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. It sounds like all of creation has been finished, and the writer is starting on what came next.
Or, more likely, that's the end of the first creation account. It sounds a lot like an ending, not a beginning, to me. Remember that the chapter and verse breaks in the Bible are not original, they were added later.
You’re making the assumption that because God is talking about His main subject {I.E. man} and thus mentions him first, that everything that follows must have happened in sequence that it was written.
That's not an assumption, that's a conclusion based on the language used. God says "Hrm, man is alone, I'd better do something about that."
Why would God conclude that he would need to make a helper for Man if he'd already done so? Why would he say "it is not good for Man to be alone" if he wasn't alone? Why would he say "I'd better do something" when he'd already done it? Your interpretation simply doesn't make sense.
Read all of Ch1, and then ask yourself ’what was the main subject, what was the authors point in writing Geneses Chapter 1’. Then read all of Ch2, and again, ask yourself ‘what was the main subject’.
G1 is about God creating and evaluating his creation, including Man. G2 is about the relationship between Man, Woman, and animals.
But none of that matters. What matters is that they detail the exact same sequence in a different order. As a literal history, they contradict.
But taken as spiritual mythology, they compliment. It's only when you try to take them as literal truth do they trip you up. Taken as what they are - poems designed to place the nature of God and Man in the proper context - they're perfectly complimentary.
You couldn't ask for better evidence that you're not supposed to take them literally. When we do it your way, we get stuck. When we do it my way, we achieve enlightenment.
Clearly your interpretation is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by JRTjr, posted 07-23-2004 2:11 AM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by JRTjr, posted 08-01-2004 10:53 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 307 (131871)
08-09-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by JRTjr
08-01-2004 10:53 PM


I challenge thee, Sir Crashfrog, to a duel at thirty pages.
I'd prefer Irish duelling rules - we hit up a pub, get wicked pissed, and whack each other with wooden clubs.
All joking aside, it seams that you have formed a hypothesis about Ch1 v Ch 2. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this seams to be what your saying.
A hypothesis? No, I've formed a conclusion based on reading the text.
Taking the text as a whole, why would the writer give two apposing accounts of creation in the same text, even if the original accounts were by different authors?
Because perhaps the original intent of the Bible editor (who placed these two transcriptions in the order they are now) was not to present a unified literary work, but simply to record Hebrew oral history, in which there were already two contradictory accounts, probably regional variants?
The second portion of the text seams to be repeatedly referring back to the first half of the text. Could this mean that the second half is not an account of the creation event, rather an account of Gods dealing with mankind?
It's much more likely, based on the text, that it's simply a concatenation of two different regional oral histories; two variants of the same story that slowly "evolved" differences. (The irony is truly astounding.)
Again, this is the most reasonable conclusion based on reading the text. Of course, I don't read Hebrew, and the original manuscripts are not avaliable to any of us. But in regards to the Bible as it is presented in English, Gen 1 and Gen 2 are obviously both chronological accounts that don't agree. Trying to say that you "know" that one of them is not a chronological account, and then offering as evidence their disagreement doesn't fly. They could disagree for more likely reasons, including error.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by JRTjr, posted 08-01-2004 10:53 PM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ex libres, posted 04-05-2005 5:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 307 (302689)
04-09-2006 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Jman
04-09-2006 5:05 PM


Re: Frowning
YOU GUYS ARE THEIR TO HELP NOT TO BULLY. BE PROFESSIONAL PLEASE.
I found Jar's language completely professional. Not sure why you find the phraseology "we frown upon" to be insulting, condecending, or in any other way unprofessional.
FOR OTHER FORUMERS THIS DISCUSSION IS REGARDS ADMIN TELLING ME ABOUT A "RULE" WHICH IS NOT SPECIFICALLY GIVEN IN THE TEN RULES AS POSTED IN THE FORUM RULES SECTION.
You just didn't read carefully enough:
quote:
Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
"Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence." Not, "address rebuttals through redaction of the original post." It's right there in the rules. If you have a response to rebuttals, it should be the introduction of new evidence, not the editing of your old.
Further I am nearly 70 years of age and will not be lectured by you regarding respect.
I think you'll find that the internet is a place where age, creed, race, sex, or even nationality don't exist. Our value here is the value of our argument; the respect we gain is the respect our arguments deserve.
If you expect Jar or any of the other admins to have known of your age before they posted, you're simply not familiar with the technologies at work here. And if you demand that they modify their behavior now after the knowledge of your age, it's incumbent on you to provide a convincing argument why.
And before you go off in another huff about lecturing to the elders, think carefully. I might be 80; Jar and Nosy might be 90. Any one of us here might be your elder. And wouldn't it be your place, then, to show us more respect?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-09-2006 06:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 296 of 307 (318084)
06-05-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Teets_Creationist
06-05-2006 6:19 PM


Re: No Contradiction If Read LITERALLY
Genesis chapter 1, CREATED or MADE, Genesis chapter 2, FORMED.
Those are synonyms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-05-2006 6:19 PM Teets_Creationist has not replied

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