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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I believe that the Torah was inspired.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Inspired by God you mean ?
In other words, the loving and gentle God inspired Moses to order the chosen people to massacre entire tribes, including their babies (who are on any sane standard, utterly innocent of anything) ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Then why do you dismiss it? I believe that the Torah was inspired.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good question. In my replies, I often play the role of devils advocate. I do this so often that sometimes I have to pause and evaluate what I actually believe. Tangle is off on this same kick that you are where you hold our feet to the fire and read every part of the words in the Bible literally as if all of them applied for us today. All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us.
Of course if you perceive God as simply a character in the book, it makes sense to read the whole book and note what He says to the people. But if you believe that God is living today, you will more easily see that this was an event that happened 3500 or more years ago and that the God of the book at that moment in time may well have something different to say to us now. Critics claim I pick and choose what is palatable, and I plead guilty. However, I believe that Heb 4:12-13 writes: Moreover, my perception and belief is that God does not only speak through the words in a book concerning His admonitions to people thousands of years ago. Yes, He "does not change" but surely He has more to say than what the book claims He said. Of course, if you believe that God is fiction, what need is there to listen to what He said in the book any more than what you claim I make palatable? ... the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are judging God based on what He allegedly said 3500 years ago. Those people then were as likely as we are now to continue waging war against other nations no matter what their beliefs were. So while I dont strictly believe that the character was made up, I do believe that the ones who wrote down the story would have a different view of that God then they would had they met Jesus Christ.
Look at people now. They judge God based only on what is written of Him. They don't seem to be able to imagine that God exists now...this moment...and that they can commune. So they trash the character in the book instead. We have no idea today what those people back then thought about life, how they thought about God, and what their habits daily were. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I certainly do not. I'm asking why YOU take some parts of it literally - e.g. the death and resurrection of Jesus - and throw away the parts you don't like - e.g. God's genocides.
... you hold our feet to the fire and read every part of the words in the Bible literally as if all of them applied for us today. Phat writes:
That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you?
All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us. Phat writes:
The same applies to Jesus, 2000 years ago. He might well have something different to say to us now. By your logic, He might very well be wearing a Make America Great Again hat when He returns and telling you to sell everything you have to build a wall on the border.
But if you believe that God is living today, you will more easily see that this was an event that happened 3500 or more years ago and that the God of the book at that moment in time may well have something different to say to us now. Phat writes:
Again, the same applies to Jesus. ... God does not only speak through the words in a book concerning His admonitions to people thousands of years ago. Yes, He "does not change" but surely He has more to say than what the book claims He said.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: For one thing it would impress upon them that their God was real. Whether this knowledge ultimately humbled them or made them arrogant and entitled can be found by studying the stories.
What would the Israelites "learn" if God defeated all of their enemies for them? ringo writes: They learned that survival was a brutal business and that it was either sink or swim for them. Modern Israelis learned the same lesson in the six-day war.
What did they learn by committing their own genocides? Phat writes:
All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us.ringo writes:
That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you?Things That Differ writes:
Getting that out of the way...
Studying the Bible dispensationally may seem confusing at first but actually it dispels confusion, explains difficult problems, reconciles seeming contradictions and lends power to the believer's ministry.If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must "rightly divide" the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail to him. It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.(...)...we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why... ringo writes: Last time I asked Him, He said something to the effect of "I AM that I AM." I figured that I would let the question drop at that point. Perhaps He is waiting for you to die so that He can teach you what you did and could have done and given you some pointers before your next assignment. (Hint: The Mormons were right...you will be assigned a new planet that you will get to visit. They will kill you, but God will bring you back. Your only assignment is to deliver a message.) So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : rewriteChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm guessing the babies were demon-possessed. That is in fact a consequence of serious sin and idolatry among a people. I think it's happening today too, that a lot of people are demon-possessed these days because of the unchecked sin, in most cases probably misidentified as mental illness of some kind.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
The concept of justice requires more than a guess that someone was possessed by a demon, though, doesn’t it ?
To begin with, justice has at its heart a concept of fairness - that you be punished for a serious transgression that you chose to commit. If you choose to commit a transgression, then justice will deliver punishment. That can’t apply to a baby, because they haven’t committed a serious transgression - nor do they possess yet the mental ability to choose to commit it, or to be aware that it’s seen as a transgression. And justice also has a requirement for evidence, beyond reasonable doubt. I know you believe in demons, but you can’t evidence them - no-one can. And to be fair, you acknowledge in your post that you’re only guessing. Characterising Moses’s injunction to enact God’s will by putting swords through babies can’t be called justice. It doesn’t have any of the necessary characteristics of that concept.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The concept of justice requires more than a guess that someone was possessed by a demon, though, doesn’t it ? I suppose so, but it was my best guess as to why babies were included in the punishment, and since that isn't persuasive the only answer I have is that God ordered it and God cannot do anything that isn't just. End of story.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a pretty poor analogy. Are you suggesting that there are private messages in the Bible for different people?
Things That Differ writes:Studying the Bible dispensationally may seem confusing at first but actually it dispels confusion, explains difficult problems, reconciles seeming contradictions and lends power to the believer's ministry. If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must "rightly divide" the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail to him. It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.(...)...we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why... Phat writes:
So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence? ringo writes:
Last time I asked Him, He said something to the effect of "I AM that I AM." So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Stam seems to make that case, yes.
Are you suggesting that there are private messages in the Bible for different people?Stam writes: You may well argue that there is no proof that people have ever been "lost". But that's another argument. Thing That Differ Browse it...he has some scriptural arguments.... The opponents of dispensationalism have often charged us with teaching, forexample, that under the Old Testament men were saved by the works of the law, whereas today they are saved by grace through faith. This charge is at least misleading, for no thinking dispensationalist would teach that the works of the law in themselves could ever save, or even help save, anyone. We understand clearly that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). Nor do we suppose that the works of the ceremonial law had any essential power to save. We have not forgotten that the Scriptures also teach that "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Heb. 10:4). We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Bring 'em here. Thing That Differ Browse it...he has some scriptural arguments....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence? Think about it. Should He have to? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You think about it. You keep claiming there's a point to God's existence. Why do you when He doesn't? ringo writes:
Think about it. Should He have to? So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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