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Author Topic:   Separation of church and state
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 313 (572754)
08-07-2010 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by marc9000
08-06-2010 8:09 AM


So the fact is, separation of church and state evolved in the US — it was not part of US foundings.
jar and Taz already made this point, but I feel that it is important enough to repeat. But first, I'd like to point out that reading the "intent" of people who died 200 years ago is a bit problematic. The reason is that there were many people involved in the founding of the Republic, and there were many people involved in framing the Constitution. Like most political documents, the Constitution isn't based on some simple, timeless principles; it is a set of compromises between political factions that had competing visions of what the Republic should be like. The framers had lots of different "intents," and the Constitution is a result of compromise between these intents. That is one of the reasons why anyone can quote mine the founders to try to find something that appears to back up there point.
Now, back to jar and Taz's point. Even if the founders unanimously had no intention of separating church and state, what does that have to do with us today? The founders have been dead for 200 years; they don't live in this country any more. We do, and it is our right (it is our duty, one might claim) to live our own lives under principles that we think are important.
Although Tom Paine wasn't a framer of the Constitution, his polemics were important in expressing a justification of independence from the UK, and he was quite clear the no generation is obligated to obey the promises made during earlier generations. In a sense, each generation is responsible for renegotiating the social contract that binds them together.
As long as we are on the subject of intents of the founders of this Republic, let's remember what I think are the important ones, that they, too, intended each generation to decide for itself how it will be governed. One point they had in mind is that the country was (and did) change greatly over the years. And, in fact, we aren't the same country that was founded over 200 years ago. One important difference is that the population is far, far more diverse than it was back then.
The second point that I don't think gets as much time as it should is that the founders themselves were well aware that, as one of the first to attempt to establish a constitutional democracy, they really weren't sure what they were doing. They realized that the document they produced was flawed, that whatever principles they were using hadn't been tested yet. And they were right. I flatter our ancestors in thinking it was a good first attempt, but it was flawed. Now, over that past 200 years of experience with constitutional democracy, between our federal government, 50 state governments, and the nations of Western Europe, we have a much, much better of idea of what will work to achieve our desired goals and what won't. (We probably have a better idea of what it is exactly what we want to achieve, but that is another topic.)
So our ideas of constitutional democracy, including the separation of church and state, did evolve over time -- just as the founders intended that it should.

To count as an atheist, one needn't claim to have proof that there are no gods. One only needs to believe that the evidence on the god question is in a similar state to the evidence on the werewolf question. -- John McCarthy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by marc9000, posted 08-06-2010 8:09 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by marc9000, posted 08-08-2010 8:49 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 313 (573006)
08-09-2010 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by marc9000
08-08-2010 8:49 PM


When Madison said "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents, I don’t think he was saying that someday it will be okay as the population gets lazier and lazier.
My point wasn't that James Madison or any of the framers would have changed his beliefs over time. My point is that, 200 years later, his belief is largely irrelevant to present discussion. Maybe he presents an argument that is still valid today and so can be repeated, maybe it would be a nice rhetorical flourish to add this quote and his name in a speech or paper that your write, but no reasonable argument against social welfare can be, "well, James Madison was opposed to it." Any argument for or against it must rely on a logic analysis of facts that exist in the here and now.
I'll also add that maybe Madison wouldn't have changed his views on this, but I suspect (with no proof) that he would not have intended to tie the hands of future generations to prevent us from coming to our own conclusions.
That is the same for arguments about the actions taken by our governments. What the framers believed and what they intended are irrelevant. What is relevant is what they actually wrote in the Constitution itself and how they should be interpreted in light of facts known in the present and the intents of the people here and now.
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... it needs to be acknowledged that separation of church and state has been an evolving process.
Sure, and I acknowledged it. And I think it's a good thing.
If that was your point, then we agree. I only chimed in because many people who try to make that point try to make it out as if it were a bad thing. I just wanted to express my opposition to the idea that the framers of the Constitution were Prophets from God who were delivering Holy Scripture to us that we dare not mess with. If that wasn't your point, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

To count as an atheist, one needn't claim to have proof that there are no gods. One only needs to believe that the evidence on the god question is in a similar state to the evidence on the werewolf question. -- John McCarthy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by marc9000, posted 08-08-2010 8:49 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-09-2010 1:11 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 58 by marc9000, posted 08-10-2010 8:01 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 313 (573020)
08-09-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-09-2010 1:11 PM


formal amendments
A method to change the Constitution itself was included in the Constitution, plus the Laws passed by Congress and Treaties were included as the Supreme Law of the Land.
Not a dispute of your point, but something I just want to add:
There are those who believe that the formal amendment process is the only legitimate way to adapt the Constitution to the new realities of our modern era, a position that I do not hold.
I would be more supportive of this idea if we had a tradition of frequently amending the Constitution to update it and had rewritten it a couple of times. But instead we have the tradition that the written document is a sacred text that can only be amended in very special circumstances. In that case, our evolving understanding of what the Constitution says is the only avenue that is allowed to us to keep it updated.
As I've said before, I don't have the luxury of living under the Constitution that I would like; I have to live under the one that we have. And that includes the manner in which Constitutional law is practiced in this country.
Edited by Chiroptera, : corrected a typo

To count as an atheist, one needn't claim to have proof that there are no gods. One only needs to believe that the evidence on the god question is in a similar state to the evidence on the werewolf question. -- John McCarthy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-09-2010 1:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-09-2010 2:43 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 37 by subbie, posted 08-09-2010 3:26 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 313 (573499)
08-11-2010 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by marc9000
08-10-2010 8:01 PM


I think it’s a bad thing, because it allows the religion of scientism free reign to combine with state.
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
The only times I've ever heard of anyone complain about "the religion of scientism," it's when conclusions reached by the logical analysis of empirical data conflict with positions held because of emotional biases.

To count as an atheist, one needn't claim to have proof that there are no gods. One only needs to believe that the evidence on the god question is in a similar state to the evidence on the werewolf question. -- John McCarthy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by marc9000, posted 08-10-2010 8:01 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by marc9000, posted 08-11-2010 9:05 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 313 of 313 (855664)
06-21-2019 10:58 AM


SCOTUS allows cross on public property
Thread necromancy!
Sorry for bring this old thread back, but I was about to create a brand new thread with essentially the same title. But I prefer using existing threads rather than create new ones.
If people object to this, I can copy my post here and paste it into a different thread.
From the New York Times:
Supreme Court Allows 40-Foot Peace Cross on State Property
In the aftermath of WWI, a monument honoring the fallen soldiers was built on public property.
The monument, known as the Peace Cross, sits at a busy intersection in Bladensburg, Md., near Washington, and commemorates 49 fallen soldiers from Prince George’s County. It was built in 1925 using contributions from local families and the American Legion....
The state took over the monument and the land under it in 1961. Since then, Maryland has spent more than $117,000 to maintain and repair the memorial.
The monument is shaped like a large cross. There are objections to the monument based on the feeling that the cross is a sectarian Christian symbol and so violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment.
Counter-arguments are... complicated it appears. The Court ruled 7-2 that there the cross is allowed, but there are several concurring opinions, and a tangled list of which justices signed onto which opinion.
I haven't yet read the opinion - I will, since the First Amendment is one of my interests - but I'm going to guess there are going to be a mix of several ideas:
The monument has been there for so long that it is now just part of the cultural heritage of the area;
crosses are such a common symbol for war dead that it has now been secularized in that context; and
the Christian religion should have special privileges in the US.
Ginsburg and Sotomayor were the two dissenters.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Weird typo; autocorrect?

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

  
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