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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: He seems to always answer for me but other categories He doesn't, so I figure He doesn't want me to have what I ask for in those cases. I always answer prayers too. If you get what you want, I did it. If you don't, the answer was, "No."Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Would that be the same "day" as Adam and Eve dying on the same "day" that they ate the fruit? I believe that all prayers were answered that day. Edited by ringo, : No reason given.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm more interested in the smaller question, the one I asked. If you can fudge a "day" in Genesis into a whole lifetime, how does God answering prayer "on the same day" work? Does it mean in my lifetime? Or Adam's lifetime? The larger question is.... Or is it just another sound bite with no meaning?
Phat writes:
As I mentioned to Faith, I answer *some* prayers. How is that different from what God does? ... why God only answers *some* prayers.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Am I stuttering? I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting. Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of rule about the method and intention for answered prayer? For the third time: You said in Message 14, "I believe that all prayers were answered that day." (September 11, 2001) You also believe, if I recall correctly, that in Genesis 3, Adam and Eve did die "the same day" as they ate the fruit - but they actually lived a whole lifetime before they died. So does "that day" (September 11, 2001) also mean a whole lifetime? Are you allowing a whole lifetime for an answer to prayer? And whose lifetime? The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?
Phat writes:
Well, I would, if I could. Wouldn't you? Why would we expect less from a god than we expect from each other? What would the value of that God be? Sorta like how you feel that God should protect us at all times from all plagues, accidents, and disasters if He in fact had the ability??Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds? ringo writes:
I believe that they did. Granted their remaining lifetime was a matter of minutes. The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they? When people are in a building that is collapsing, I would think a lot of them would be praying, "God help me get out of here alive." How was that prayer answered?
Phat writes:
No doubt many of them would "pray". That's the culture we live in. What makes you think that even atheists didn't have a desperate hope and belief of salvation...or leaving peace with family---milliseconds before they perished? But the question I'm asking is: How were those prayers, or the prayers of believers, answered?Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
You remind me of the gamblers who only remember their wins. Gambling must be a good idea because they won $1000 once. But the casinos stay in business because it cost them $5000 to win $1000. There are lots of miracle stories from 9/11, people who didn't go to the tower that day by some fluke, people who got out miraculously, people who got saved that day, a woman who in retrospect is sure it was an angel who helped her get out. I'm more concerned about the cases where a miracle didn't happen.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You don't know why I'm an atheist.
That's why you are currently an atheist. Phat writes:
Well, I can't figure out why you would have any interest in such a "god".
You can't wrap your mind around the belief in a God Who doesn't answer each and every prayer by rescuing the individual. Phat writes:
That makes him an accomplice. God foresees the tragedy as it unfolds, perhaps. He watches the terrorists as they sow a plan to bring about destruction towards the entrenched power and greed of their enemy.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Seriously?
For others, their family would find peace in the midst of the tragedy of their death. Phat writes:
We know he isn't. That's what makes him a monster. One thing I don't believe, and that is that God is like a giant rescuer Who appears, diverts the path of the airplane, and saves the greatest number of people which he can.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I can envision seven better gods before breakfast.
So in other words, despite the unbelief in the God described by many, you think that in your mind you can envision a better God. Phat writes:
Why not?
Let me guess...in a perfect world governed by the God of your imagination, nobody would ever kill, steal, or slander their parents. Nobody would ever desire anything that anyone else had. We would all be happy little people scratching each other back as this God taught us to do...giving more than we received and paying it forward. And should a natural disaster arise, this God would divert it from our path. Phat writes:
You keep getting that wrong. We do have a "need" for a god who would do those things - but there is none. You're just trying to reconcile the real world with a God who does nothing. Which is why you simply see the utopian people behaving like altruistic socialists without need for a God.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
If He isn't doing anything to stop the bad stuff, how do we know He's contributing anything to the good stuff? God is an accomplice in every human decision ever made.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
If you "need" a mythical god-creature to motivate you to be good, how is that different from needing a mythical god-creature to stop you from being a murderer?
Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
That's the point; you should be.
It's not at all like gambling because I'm not at all thinking about percentages and rates, how many prayers answered as opposed to how many not, how many miracles as opposed to how many not. Faith writes:
If only one prayer in a thousand is "answered" you should be wondering whether it really is an answer or just a coincidence.
If there's an incidence of one person being helped by an angel I just think that's interesting, I don't see any necessity to compare it to all the others who didn't encounter angels. Faith writes:
You're not "obliged" to notice it at all. But if you're going to ascribe incidents to miracles and/or answered prayer, you should put some thought into whether they really are miracles and/or answered prayers. If it snows on a day in July, why am I obliged to mention all the times it didn't?Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So do I.
God answers prayer through many ordinary means Faith writes:
The same goes for believers in Allah or Ganesh. believers recognize as His answers what unbelievers would dismiss as coincidence or at least nothing out of the ordinary.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's not a "point you are making". It's just a belief you are preaching. It's like saying you like ice cream.
The point we are trying to make regarding our belief is that there is One God and that yes, we just happen to have been found by Him. Phat writes:
Not at all. I point out what the scripture says. Your churches and apologists have been teaching you wrong. You, predictably, along with jar use scripture to refute what the mainstream church and apologetics have taught and come up with an entirely different way of defining scripture.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
No, it's believers who say that. We unbelievers actually have a higher opinion of you believers than you have of yourselves. Critics will say that we believers would be reprobates without Him...Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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