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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Stories about prayer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
If He isn't doing anything to stop the bad stuff, how do we know He's contributing anything to the good stuff? God is an accomplice in every human decision ever made.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Many of our prayers are for others and ourselves to have the heart and wisdom to do just that. And I know what you will say....something along the lines of "stop praying and just get out and DO it!" But the Lord helps change our heart.(grow it stronger) He helps me to let go of my extra dollar for the stinky guy on the corner. Even if the guy stole from my store yesterday. If He isn't doing anything to stop the bad stuff, how do we know He's contributing anything to the good stuff?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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It's not at all like gambling because I'm not at all thinking about percentages and rates, how many prayers answered as opposed to how many not, how many miracles as opposed to how many not. If there's an incidence of one person being helped by an angel I just think that's interesting, I don't see any necessity to compare it to all the others who didn't encounter angels. If it snows on a day in July, why am I obliged to mention all the times it didn't?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
If you "need" a mythical god-creature to motivate you to be good, how is that different from needing a mythical god-creature to stop you from being a murderer?
Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
That's the point; you should be.
It's not at all like gambling because I'm not at all thinking about percentages and rates, how many prayers answered as opposed to how many not, how many miracles as opposed to how many not. Faith writes:
If only one prayer in a thousand is "answered" you should be wondering whether it really is an answer or just a coincidence.
If there's an incidence of one person being helped by an angel I just think that's interesting, I don't see any necessity to compare it to all the others who didn't encounter angels. Faith writes:
You're not "obliged" to notice it at all. But if you're going to ascribe incidents to miracles and/or answered prayer, you should put some thought into whether they really are miracles and/or answered prayers. If it snows on a day in July, why am I obliged to mention all the times it didn't?Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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The circumstances themselves tell me whether the prayer was answered and whether that really was an angel. I don't need statistics to tell me that.
Besides, God answers prayer through many ordinary means, and believers recognize as His answers what unbelievers would dismiss as coincidence or at least nothing out of the ordinary. There is no point in discussing this subject on that level since we have assumptions at such complete odds to each other you will be talking to those who already share your views and the same is true on the side of believers.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So do I.
God answers prayer through many ordinary means Faith writes:
The same goes for believers in Allah or Ganesh. believers recognize as His answers what unbelievers would dismiss as coincidence or at least nothing out of the ordinary.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The point we are trying to make regarding our belief is that there is One God and that yes, we just happen to have been found by Him. Which supports the idea that He chooses the reproachable things to shame the wise (in their own eyes). Faith and I hardly represent the strongest or "best" Christians, but we do understand what we have been taught about scripture. You, predictably, along with jar use scripture to refute what the mainstream church and apologetics have taught and come up with an entirely different way of defining scripture. Which I disagree with but which makes for some interesting conversations.
You *do* have a point in that the best critics of Christianity(modern dogma) are best represented by atheists/agnostics/secular humanists who claim membership in the club yet continually question and redefine its by-laws. I suppose that we are forever stuck debating you. And I suppose that you will always throw up evidence as the only valid standard with which to score points in such a debate. My only evidence is my character. It varies day by day but hopefully is getting more stable.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If you "need" a mythical god-creature to motivate you to be good, how is that different from needing a mythical god-creature to stop you from being a murderer? I think that under the most pressing circumstances, any human is capable of murder..yet most of us have a strong enough sense of right and wrong to suppress the urge. Heck, I've gotten mad enough at idiots in traffic to nearly ramming them yet I've never initiated such acts of road rage...though the thoughts briefly occur. Whether I need God to keep me sane or not, I believe that I need Him. Critics will say that we believers would be reprobates without Him...whereas *they* would still do the right thing....but how would we ever know whether or not Gods presence in the world keeps everybody from being reprobates...even non-believers?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's not a "point you are making". It's just a belief you are preaching. It's like saying you like ice cream.
The point we are trying to make regarding our belief is that there is One God and that yes, we just happen to have been found by Him. Phat writes:
Not at all. I point out what the scripture says. Your churches and apologists have been teaching you wrong. You, predictably, along with jar use scripture to refute what the mainstream church and apologetics have taught and come up with an entirely different way of defining scripture.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
No, it's believers who say that. We unbelievers actually have a higher opinion of you believers than you have of yourselves. Critics will say that we believers would be reprobates without Him...Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, I read through the thread and so far absolutely no evidence of any answered prayers has been presented. There have been, as usual, the totally unsupported assertion that some prayer were answered yet zero evidence to support those assertions.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's OK, God isn't interested in convincing people who don't recognize the evidence He's already given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In this case, the critics I was referring to were other believers.
And there is no collective *we*. Everyone has different ideas as to what's real. You are starting to sound like Stile. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But so far there has been no evidence given Faith.
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