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Author | Topic: Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Dredge writes:
please describe the process involved in the evolution of an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a fish's single-circulation heart, including the steps involved how natural selection and what environmental pressures produced those steps.Tanypteryx writes:
It's okay to admit that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a fish's single-circulation heart - no one possibly could, since it (was alleged to have) occurred millions of years ago and can't be repeated. Reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. Selective pressures: finding food, finding a mate, reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. No one can know how that (alleged) evolution even got to first base ... or even what first base was.
Dredge writes:
"please describe how a whale's blowhole evolved. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced each of those steps. Please describe how birds evolved from reptiles. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps. Please describe how amphibians evolved from fish. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps." Tanypteryx writes:
It's okay to admit that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of any of the examples I mentioned - no one possibly could, since they (were alleged to have) occurred millions of years ago and can't be repeated.
Reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. Selective pressures: finding food, finding a mate, reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. No one can know how those (alleged) evolutionary transitions even got to first base ... or even what first base was.
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Either your comprehension skills are sorely lacking or you're a troll. You don't seem to realize how severely you just contradicted yourself. Here you are in Message 142 agreeing with AnswersInGenitals's point that not knowing the details of how a specific thing was done doesn't mean you don't understand the process:
Dredge writes: Answersingenitals writes:
No.
If you are unable to provide every bit of detail (and proof of that detail) asked for, does that mean that we haven't the foggiest idea of how long extinct volcanoes, glacial lakes, or pyramids came to be?
And here you are in Message 143, the very next message, again making the type of argument that you just agreed was invalid:
Your reply strongly suggests that you cannot describe the process involved in the evolution of novel body plans and organs, which in turn suggests you don't know how evolution works. Please get a clue. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
I did describe it. If there's something you don't understand, ask questions. Don't just assume that everybody else is a dim-witted as you. Your reply strongly suggests that you cannot describe the process involved in the evolution of novel body plans and organs...."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
A not altogether accurate assessment ... technically, an idiot is someone who can neither speak, nor read nor write.
idiot.
A scientific theory like ToE becomes the searchlight and describes how any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded. Not in molecular detail but in enough detail to see natures workings.
... and yet no one can describe the process involved in the evolution of even one novel organ or body plan. Sounds like the explanatory power of ToE is rather limited.Edited by Dredge, .
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
Message 120 ... and yet no one can describe the process involved in the evolution of even one novel organ or body plan. Don't just deny, deny, deny. Discuss. What do you not understand?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
119
Dredge writes:
Can you describe how even one macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded?Tangle writes:
Fail. The link you provided doesn't answer my question. It presents evidence of certain evolution transitions, but doesn't mention one word about HOW nature actually produced any of those transitions.
AbstractIn the past few decades, many new discoveries have provided numerous transitional fossils that show the evolution of hoofed mammals from their primitive ancestors. We can now document the origin of the odd-toed perissodactyls, their early evolution when horses, brontotheres, rhinoceroses, and tapirs can barely be distinguished, and the subsequent evolution and radiation of these groups into distinctive lineages with many different species and interesting evolutionary transformations through time. Similarly, we can document the evolution of the even-toed artiodactyls from their earliest roots and their great radiation into pigs, peccaries, hippos, camels, and ruminants. We can trace the complex family histories in the camels and giraffes, whose earliest ancestors did not have humps or long necks and looked nothing like the modern descendants. Even the Proboscidea and Sirenia show many transitional fossils linking them to ancient ancestors that look nothing like modern elephants or manatees. All these facts show that creationist attacks on the fossil record of horses and other hoofed mammals are completely erroneous and deceptive. Their critiques of the evidence of hoofed mammal evolution are based entirely on reading trade books and quoting them out of context, not on any firsthand knowledge or training in paleontology or looking at the actual fossils. Evolutionary Transitions in the Fossil Record of Terrestrial Hoofed Mammals - Evolution: Education and Outreach
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Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Percy writes:
I don't even know that the "evolution" evident in the fossil record is the result of a contiguous biological process, much less know what produced it.
You believe life on earth evolved because you know what evolution looks like in the fossil record, and you know what evolution looks like because you know how it works.
Do we know the details of how the whale's blowhole migrated to the top of its head in terms of mutations, matings and morphological changes? No, of course not. But we still know how evolution works.
Guest Speaker: "I can't describe the process involved in splitting an atom. But I still know how to split an atom."
Audience: fits of laughter
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Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
marc9000 writes:
Oh dear ...
What you've done is effectively shown that evolution / atheism has very comparable faith, hope, unanswered questions etc as does Christianity. That's why they're so angry.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Troll writes: Fail. The link you provided doesn't answer my question. It presents evidence of certain evolution transitions, but doesn't mention one word about HOW nature actually produced any of those transitions. So, before I waste more of my time, have you accepted that those transitions *did* happen?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge: and yet no one can describe the process involved in the evolution of even one novel organ or body plan. Dredge: It presents evidence of certain evolution transitions, but doesn't mention one word about HOW nature actually produced any of those transitions. Do you doubt that it happened? Based on what? Based on how bad your tummy feels when you think on it too hard?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Tangle writes: So, before I waste more of my time, have you accepted that those transitions *did* happen? Irrelevant to my argument. What matters is that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of any novel body plan or organ. You wouldn't even know where to start.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Troll writes: Irrelevant to my argument. But highly relevant to mine and the ToE. If you don't accept that those transition happened there's little point me explaining how. So do you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Au contraire, by explaining how, you can demonstrate that you know how evolution works. So by all means, fire away - please describe the process involved in the evolution of a novel body plan or organ. But highly relevant to mine and the ToE. If you don't accept that those transition happened there's little point me explaining how. But it's impossible for anyone to describe any such process, bcoz said processes happened millions of years ago and cannot be repeated ... which is why I argue that no one can claim to know how evolution works.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Troll writes: What matters is that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of any novel body plan or organ. What matters is that you can't describe any novel body plan or organ. I don't think you can point to a single novel body plan or novel organ. The evolutionary process is descent with modification, not poof with modification. Troll writes: You wouldn't even know where to start. Well it's obvious you don't know where to start to describe novel body plans or novel organs. I would start with organisms reproducing with new mutations, selection, repeat. Selective pressures: finding food, finding a mate, reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. No novel body plans, no novel organs, just descent with modification. ABE: And just for clarification, a novel body plan or organ would be something completely new showing up in one generation. We all know that parents reproduce offspring that are almost identical in body plan with almost identical organs. That's why it's called REproduction not NOVELproduction.Edited by Tanypteryx, . Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Troll writes: Au contraire, by explaining how, you can demonstrate that you know how evolution works. So by all means, fire away - please describe the process involved in the evolution of a novel body plan or organ. But it's impossible for anyone to describe any such process, bcoz said processes happened millions of years ago and cannot be repeated ... which is why I argue that no one can claim to know how evolution works. I've shown you the evidence that science has for the evolution of hoofed mammals. Having read that (ha!) do you accept that hoofed mammals evolved in that way? If you do, we can move on to the how of evolution.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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