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Author | Topic: Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Empirically (as constrasted with your "hypothetically"), many YEC were refusing to use the COVID19 vaccine, and were instead recommending horse dewormer medication. And those "worms" they saw in the diarrhea that dewormer caused was actually the shredded lining of their intestines. Within the past few years there was a cartoon. A creationist is at the doctor's office with a life-threatening disease and the doctor wants him to choose between two cures: "This one was invented by a scientist using all our scientific knowledge including evolution. And this one was invented by a creationist using only the Bible." Guess which one the creationist would end up choosing.
{ABE:
AZPaul3 just posted that cartoon immediately below in Message 617. It was from Doonesbury, which I have not seen for decades. I'm quite certain that I had seen this particular one elsewhere on this forum and was remembering it from there.
} Thank you!
Similarly, when a scientist who is also a creationist does scientific work (yes, strange as it may seem, it has been known to happen), he never makes any use of his creationist beliefs but rather he sticks to the science, even using the established old ages in geology. Similarly, when a creationist petroleum geologist looks for a new oil field, he never uses his creationist beliefs but rather uses standard old-earth non-Flood geology, complete with the geological column and index fossils. Why? Because it works! In contrast, attempts at finding oil through creationist means have failed miserably. I seem to recall the company's name was Zion Oil & Gas. Based in the USA and founded by YECs, it sought to use the Bible to find oil in the Middle East, especially around Israel. They didn't find any oil (or maybe just once out of sheer luck), while other oil companies exploring the area were successful using standard geological practices. They made most of their money getting American creationists to invest in them. Rather similar to the swindlers who sold people "prime Florida real estate" that was nothing but swampland -- I guess that is what they mean by "traditional American values". The bottom line is that science works incredibly well, while creationism always fails miserably. Gee, kind of looks like a pattern there.Edited by dwise1, : ABE
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Sludge writes: Knowledge of the mechanisms of evolution has certainly contributed to the treatment of disease, but the theory that all life on earth shares a common ancestor has contributed nothing at all to the treatment of disease. It's a useless theory. We defeated this pathetic argument years ago. You have been repeatedly refuted in every argument you've made here.
sludge writes: I invite you to prove me wrong You're too late, we did that ages ago.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Dredge Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
You never accepted the verdict.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Dredge writes: You never accepted the verdict. Tany? Did you not accept the verdict? Could we have been done with this whole discussion, the whole evolution vs creation debate except you didn't accept the verdict? Tsk, tsk.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Hey, we celebrated the Dover Verdict together, remember?
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Yeah, I remember that. Are you telling me the Dredge was lying again? That's a 10 commandments violation. His boss is not going to be pleased.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Are you telling me the Dredge was lying again? Yep, same ones over and over.
That's a 10 commandments violation. His boss is not going to be pleased. You would thinks so, but his boss is fictitious, so it's a paradox.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Dredge writes: You can't prove that you know what process produced the changes evident in the fossil record, therefore you can't claim to know how evolution works. Yes, you're absolutely right, scientifically we can't prove it. Scientifically we can't prove anything and never have. --PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
More likely there's a glitch in you. Maybe there's a glitch in the system. For future reference, failing to provide a citation for a quote is a lesser offense than lying about it. The cover-up is often worse than the original crime. Ask Nixon."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
And yet they don't. Actual YEC scientists, doing actual science, are Very few and very far between. Hypothetically, a YEC scientist could develop vaccines just as competently as a Darwinist scientist. Hypothetically, a flat-earther could go to the moon - but he'd have to use the actual science instead of the flat-earth nonsense. Similarly, a YEC could develop vaccines only by using actual science instead of YEC nonsense.
Dredge writes:
Every one. What sort of scientist claims to "know" something that he can't prove that he knows? No scientist needs to prove anything. You don't understand what knowledge is."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
Insulin from cows and pigs. Why would their insulin work in us if we were not all related? I invite you to prove me wrong by providing an example of how the theory that all life on earth shares a common ancestor has contribted to the treatment of disease."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Dredge writes: Sorry, I don't understand any of that. It means that it's not impossible that you could have inadvertently cut-n-pasted a superscript into the textbox, but there's no doubt that you did cut-n-paste it in. There's no other way it could have gotten there. There's nothing in the software, no glitch, that would do that because the superscript is a unicode character, and there's nothing in the software for representing unicode characters. If you copy unicode characters into a textbox then the software will pass them on when it writes the message to the database, but it can't itself put unicode characters in a textbox. Your superscript "6" takes three bytes to represent, in hex: 0xE2, 0x81, 0xB6. That this is a unicode character is hidden from us by browsers and tools like Micosoft Word. Here's a bunch of unicode characters:
⁶ ¢ ® ™ © ¿ € ¥ ⅝ × --Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Insulin from cows and pigs. Why would their insulin work in us if we were not all related? Not only that, but large groupings of species have the same proteins, but slightly different in their amino acid sequences. I would assume that some proteins are present in some groups, but not in others (eg, proteins for milk production would be found in all mammals, but not in non-mammals). Despite creationist "improbability of producing a complete protein by chance" claims which posit an 80-amino-acid protein with every single locus in the protein chain requiring one-and-only-one specific amino acid "or else the protein won't work", a lot of those loci can accept other amino acids; from Awbrey and Thwaites' two-model creation/evolution class syllabus (not quoting verbatim):
quote So while active sites on a protein are restricted in the number of amino acid substitutions they can tolerate without affecting the function of the protein, nearly half of the loci are primarily structural and can take any of 20 amino acids. That means that the same protein can exist and function in many different species despite many amino acids being different. Therefore, protein sequence comparisons between species has been a way to measure how closely related species are. And of course closeness of relatedness implies them sharing a common ancestor. My web page, The Bullfrog Affair, discusses this topic; the title is from Duane Gish's infamous bold-face lie on national TV about a protein that shows humans to be more closely related to a bullfrog than he is to a chimpanzee. Yeah, that one definitely blew up in Gish's face and created a standard response to creationist claims, "BULLFROG!" The thing is that protein comparisons has been a valid scientific tool for measuring relatedness between species and it has been found to closely correlate with phylogenetic trees. There are even a few O'Reilly books on that field, bioinformatics. I even played around with the software tool, BLAST, 30 years ago. While ID tries to poo-poo the fact that every eucaryote's biochemistry is the same and uses the same proteins, it cannot explain the differences we see in the non-active parts of the proteins' sequences, nor why the pattern of those differences line up with how closely or distantly the species appear to be to each other. Only descent from common ancestors can explain that. And extrapolating those common ancestors back to one common ancestral species does certainly appear likely.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Tanypteryx writes:
That was a miscarriage of justice. It will be overturned one day ... just like Roe v Wade was. Hey, we celebrated the Dover Verdict together, remember? The truth cannot be suppressed forever.
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