Schraf and Satcomm hand in hand against victimless crimes

I've read the thread.What a reaction.

quote:

---

A "victimless" crime is distinguished from other crimes, because all parties involved have consented to the activity in question. A consensual activity, crime or other, does not suddenly change to nonconsensual simply because the person was a victim of another crime in the past.

---

I can't disagree with your formal logic, I suppose.I don't object to the free expression of anyone's sexuality as long as people consent. If women and men want to sleep around for fun, I could care less.I disagree with the notion that (mostly) males seem to have that sexual access to females (or males) through the purchasing of their bodies is some kind of right; therefore, prostitution is normal. I think sex is normal. Buying sex is archaeic."Can't court the females effectively? Can't learn the social skills that will get you some? Don't worry! You can simply buy the sex you always wanted, since it's now illegal to take it by force."Personally, I tend to think of prostitution as a product of restrictive, putitan social constructs because if people were simply able to have sex with a willing partner without feeling guilty or strange, people wouldn't feel the need to go buy a body to use.

quote:

---

For example, if a large percentage of secretaries turned out to have been violated as children, that WOULD NOT make being a secretary a NONCONSENSUAL activity.

---

Of course it wouldn't, and I don't think this is a good example. Being raped as a child would seem to tend to have a pretty strong effect on what you grew up thinking sexuality was all about, while being raped as a child wouldn't have a lot to do with how you grew up thinking how typing or colating should be performed, don't you think?I wonder if you think it is possible for a prostitute to be raped? I mean, the customer is just getting what he paid for, right? What about the pimps?I do not deny the possibility of there being some prostitutes which are in their occupation out of a great feeling of self-worth. However, I am not as yet convinced, as you seem to be, that many, or most, are.According to the statistics I found (admittedly at a pretty over-the-top "everything is prostitution" site) it said that the average age of females entering prostitution was 13 years old. The sex trade in very, very young children overseas is quite popular with Western and tourists. The site also stated estimates for incest/childhood sexual abuse for prostitutes ranging from 65%-90%.You mentioned something about "all those studies" being debunked, but I think I missed where and by whom this debunking had been done. Can you please elaborate on which studies you specifically object to, and what subsequent studies have shown differing results?I did go looking for evidence which disconfirmed my ideas, and I found some, but most references were not actual studies but popular press books. Having said that, I am not a particular fan of certain kinds of feminist writing and research and there is a lot of really horrible crap passing as science in the social sciences.

quote:

---

What this does mean, is that there are people in the industry who haven't been abused and enjoy what they do and do not agree that their work is "lower" than other job choices. They simply have different standards than you.

---

How many, holmes? What percentage of all the sex workers in the world, would you say, feel good about their jobs?Just because there are some people who feel good about being prostitutes doesn't mean that most, or even many, do.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-17-2003]

quote:

---

Btw, what's wrong with traditional American culture?

---

It's sexist, racist, and classist, for starters.I love America and I'm glad I live here, but "traditional" culture has a very definite dark side.

quote:

---

Why is it so hard for liberal academics to embrace it?

---

Because liberal academics are often women, minorities, non-Protestant Christians, and other groups who study the history of the "Traditional" American culture which had excluded them from academia entirely until the recent past, and then restricted (and continue to restrict) their upward mobility.

quote:

---

It's who we are as American citizens. To speak of it in a negative context like that sounds very anti-American to me.

---

To criticize America is to perform a profoundly patriotic act, on the contrary. To be free from the tyrrany of the majority, and to feel free to stand up and say so without fear of reprisal, is the whole POINT of America!

quote:

---

I always say if you don't like it, then get out.

---

What, do you think that America should become a dictatorship or a Communist state in which only those who agree with the majority, or who are too afraid to oppose them, should live here?What a crazy un-American thinker you are, Satcomm!

quote:

---

That's a pretty harsh description of our modern culture, dont you think?

---

I don't think of our modern culture as the "traditional" American culture. I think of modern culture as being the product of "traditional" American culture being forced to be more inclusive due to the efforts of civil rights activists over the last 80 years or more.The "American Dream" used to only be available to WASPs in America, and before women won the vote, only to WASP men.

quote:

---

Would it be better if we were not passionate people, but instead mindless neutral PC robots?

---

You have yet to make your case that the people who don't believe as you do are "mindless neutral PC robots." That is a dismissive insult.

quote:

---

Oh, I'm not arguing that "traditional" American culture is "pure". I'm just reminding that we should not forget our origins and our principles. Otherwise history will continue to repeat itself. (It probably will anyway.)

---

I agree, except this is not what you indicated in your previous post. you were wanting to know what was wrong with traditional American culture, and I gave you a few examples.

quote:

---

And there we have it. Secular college = Liberal complain-fest for women, minorities, non-Protestant Christians, atheists, and angry white people who want to be like the minority.

---

So, are you saying that discrimination doesn't or hasn't ever existed for women, minorities and other traditionally marginalized groups in America?To simply say we are all a bunch of complainers is to spit in the face of the past and present struggles for fair treatment that these groups have fought and died for. Also, it is an easy way for you to simply dismiss the complaints without having to find out if any of them might be legitimate. It is a form of insulating yourself from possibly having to change your views.Did it ever occur to you that the complaints are legitimate? If you don't think they are, why not? What is your evidence?A: To criticize America is to perform a profoundly patriotic act, on the contrary. To be free from the tyrrany of the majority, and to feel free to stand up and say so without fear of reprisal, is the whole POINT of America!

quote:

---

I agree. And it's my right to criticize the principles of people like yourself. I wouldn't want either of our rights taken away.

---

A: What, do you think that America should become a dictatorship or a Communist state in which only those who agree with the majority, or who are too afraid to oppose them, should live here?

quote:

---

Nah, I just think that people like you bitch too much.

---

But that's not at all what you said!You said that if people here don't like how things are, then they should leave. Now you are changing your tune, and that is good, but don't expect me to forget what you originally said.quote:
What a crazy un-American thinker you are, Satcomm!

quote:

---

Nope, I'm simply performing my profoundly patriotic act of criticizing the majority of popular liberals who want to change this country into a turd, and make 50,000,000 laws in place of a few.

---

Which liberals, exactly, are you talking about? Which laws are you talking about?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-17-2003]

Some statistics. Are they worthy?Finkelhor, David & Browne, Angela. "The Traumatic Impact of Child Sexual Abuse," American Journal of Orthopsychiatry2/3 of prostitutes were sexually abused from the ages of 3-16. (The average age of victimization was 10).More than 90% of prostitutes lost their virginity through sexual assault.70% of prostitutes believed that being sexually abused as children influenced their decisions to become prostitutes.Children who are sexually abused are 27.7 times more likely than non-victims to be arrested for prostitution as adults.Men and women who were raped or forced into sexual activity as children or adolescents were four times more likely to work in prostitution compared with non-victims.57% of prostitutes reported having been sexually assaulted as children; 49% reported having been physically assaulted as children.

I have got to say, holmes, that you make a lot of claims in your post but do not back them up at all.You say that most people going to prostitutes wnat a real person with feelings. Upon what do you base this? Your blow up doll analogy is not effective, because I would imagine that blow up dolls cannot really simulate a real vagina very well, nor can blow up dolls actively do anything.I actually don't buy your claim that sexual release with a partner is necessary. Sexual release feels good and has a lot of benefits, but it doesn't have to be with a partner other than your own hand to gain the benefits.If a 14 year old girl became a prostitute (as this is the average age of entry into prostitution) and stayed there until age 18, would the tricks she turned now that she is 18 be victimless?

quote:

---

Even if everything that study says is true, it runs into the problems I stated in my last post regarding why such stats cannot be used to blame prostitution itself, even if it does define the majority of prostitutes as having problems (and so should not be prostitutes).

---

This brings me back to my original contention, then; you have this idealized idea of Disney-hookers loving their jobs, and even if it were true that most of them had been molested, that prostitution was still a wonderful thing.Do you deny that male desire for dominance and for feeling powerful is, or never has been, at the root of the sex trade, along with the historical exclusion of women from good-paying jobs?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-17-2003][This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-17-2003]

deleted post.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-18-2003]

quote:

---

Your original contention was that prostitution was not a victimless crime because prostitutes may have been abused as children.

---

No, it was YOUR original contention that prostitution was a victimless crime, period. I asked you about the (not small number of) people who get into it because they have been sexually abused as children. You then proceeded to lecture me about all the wonderful things that prostitution does for people. I notice that most of your examples are the benefits to customers, not to the prostitutes. You also handed me a great many claims and assertions which you choose to put out there with no back up whatsoever. I don't know if your views are accurate or not.Oh, and I'd like to address your massage therapist analogy. You claimed that prostitution and massage therapists are practically the same thing, but I think there are some fundamental differences.The client of a massage therapist is completely passive. They do not do anything to the therapist. The therapist remains fully clothed. There is no vulnerability attached to being a massage therapist; in fact, it's the other way around.

quote:

---

Apparently my strong denounciation of your contention has made it appear I believe everyone loves being a P. I do not understand this as I stated that this is not the case.

​

I stated very clearly I think the percentage of people happy to be working as a prostitute are higher than those working as toilet scrubbers (even in Disneyland), butchers in a slaughterhouse, etc...

---

Why do you say that? Based upon what, exactly?

quote:

---

That does not imply they are happier than astronauts, lawyers, and professors.

​

That does not in any way shape or form say that I think everyone loves their job.

​

I think I set a very low bar for "average" job satisfaction in that career.

---

quote:

---

FOR THE LAST TIME AND FOR THE RECORD: Not all prostitutes enjoy being prostitutes. Some were abused as children, some are being forced to work as prostitutes (even as children), some get diseases, some take drugs, some drink too much, some get raped, some get murdered.

​

I do not idealize prostitution as I know the people in it, on both sides. Granted I have seen it mainly in countries where it is LEGAL... which is part of my overall argument against your stats (which come from countries where it is illegal).

---

Do you deny my statistic that the average age of entry into prostitution for females is 13 or 14?

quote:

---

You are the one with an "idealized" vision of what it is to be a prostitute, because it is derived mainly from stats and feminist dogma.

---

This may be true, but so far all you have provided to me to counter my ideas are assertions and opinion rather than evidence.

quote:

---

My contention is that the examples you list are arguments for legalization and regulation not keeping things the way they are.

---

I don't think we should keep things the way they are, either, but I don't think selling one's body or buying another's body should be legal. I think we shuld be, as human beings, moving away from the comoditization of human beings.

quote:

---

In this way, countries weed out the worse-case scenarios and as much as possible let the "disneyland" hookers reign in that occupation.

---

Actually, this might be a good intermediate step, but the fact reamains that the existence of prostitution simplly enforced the idea that men can and should have access to any kind of body to do almost whatever they want with with no responsibility other than payment. This, to me, is dehuminization of a very high degree.A: Do you deny that male desire for dominance and for feeling powerful is, or never has been, at the root of the sex trade, along with the historical exclusion of women from good-paying jobs?

quote:

---

I think this has to be the heart of the matter.

​

The answer is YES. I deny the feminist garbage that sex is primarily a dominance issue between men and women, and therefore deny that the sex trade is "rooted" in the male desire for dominance.

---

I think that it is becoming less and less a dominance issue as women and men figure out how to have egalitarian relationships. However, there are plenty of men and women today who use sex (or the witholding of) to punish, to reward, to coerce, etc. Rape is an extreme example of specifically sexual power and dominance. A man could beat a woman up if he wanted to be dominant, but to rape her is a powerful sexual domination that is also meant to humiliate.Sex is powerful. I don't think it is primarily a dominance issue between equal partners, but it is there. I think it has to be more of a dominance issue in the sex trade because customers (mostly male) can buy anything they want. That is power, plain and simple.

quote:

---

The counter-examples are many. Men are prostitutes (including being with women), women hire prostitutes (women and men), some men who hire prostitutes desire to be dominated, some women specialize in only that field (being dominant), what about when couples are hired by men/women?

---

What percentage of "Johns" are women or couples?

quote:

---

Now I AM NOT SAYING, that a majority of men do not have power or dominance issues, and that they don't like to feel powerful by buying a lady for the night, or that once bought they like to feel like they are in charge.

​

I am simply saying the trade is not "rooted" in those social-temporal gender issues... it would exist outside of them as well.

---

First you would have to establish that the tendency of homo sapien males to want to sexually dominate females doesn't exist.

quote:

---

A masculinist, could easily turn the tables and point out how many women also play the power game in catching the most affluent men, and getting money out of men for very little work (some get away with it without having to have sex), so it is somewhat of a two way street.

---

I think that this behavior by women is wrong (albeit somewhat evolutionarily driven), too.

quote:

---

But that is getting off the subject.

​

Trade in ANYTHING is "rooted" on inequity in money. Someone does a service for someone else for payment. An exchange of power.

​

Women (up till very recently) have been cut out, or pushed down economically. They have been disempowered and restricted from access to the highest avenues of attaining power. Ease of access to making good money may very well convince a woman to try prostitution (though this also works for men).

​

If that is all women were allowed to do, or have access to, then we'd be talking about a serious problem. I totally agree.

---

Right now, it's the only occupation that has paid women better than it has paid men.

quote:

---

I don't think this is the case, however, especially as this general oppression has been combined with laws against prostitution.

​

You can't have it both ways, saying men want this and push women into it when it was the men who made it illegal in the first place.

---

They made it illegal, but they don't really enforce the laws.

quote:

---

Or I suppose you can if it's a fractured-paranoid plot of one group of men wanting to dominate women through prostitution, and the other wanting to do it by not allowing women control of their own bodies.

​

But this is all the more reason to allow it to be legal. Let the woman decide for herself. And yes, no one should be forced into it, people that have been abused should be encouraged not to go into it, and women in general should have equal access to other high-paying careers.

​

I did not say the highest goal for a women is to be a prostitute.

---

quote:

---

It has existed in all societies, over the entire course of human history. I might note it flourished in societies with more free sexual attitudes. And Bonobo research suggests that even before written history sex was a common method of barter for humans.

---

I am curious about your claim that Bonobos use sex in a similar way as prostitution. I was not aware that chimps have anything like an economic system in their societies. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

quote:

---

I have also pointed out that even people who don't like prostitution often end up granting or withholding sex within their relationships in order to get something they want (emotional or physical).

---

Pure bald assertion. You have no way of knowing if people who do not approve of prostitution are therefore more likely to manipulate their partner with sex.

quote:

---

This is trade even if no one likes to think of it that way.

---

I agree that it is trade; it is manipulative and cowardly.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-20-2003]