Read anything by God or Darwin lately?

Maybe one for the "Book Nook" forum? Otherwise "Coffee House" will suffice.How may EvC members have read Charles Darwin's "On The Origin of the Species"?How many have read the bible?Despite having read many books about both evolution and religion, Christianity in particular, I must admit that it is only relatively recently that I can claim any direct knowledge of either of these foundational books.I have recently purchased and been reading a 150/200th anniversary edition of "On The Origin of the Species" (illustrated and interspersed with many of Darwin's letters and autobiographical notes - edited and compiled by David Quammen http://www.amazon.ca/...strated-Charles-Darwin/dp/1402756399 - A truly beautiful book if you like books as "things" in themselves).In contrast I have read much of the bible but always as a reference rather than a coherent chronological "story". It is fair to say that my time at EvC has resulted in me reading far more of the bible than I would otherwise have ever done. Usually, but not always, in response to various theistic arguments that I am attempting to counter. I have always tried to take the approach that you can only truly refute that which you not only understand, but also that which you understand why others believe.Anyway...Have EvC members whether atheist, "evolutionist", theist, creationist or whatever actually read either or both of these books? Do they consider it important as to whether or not they have actually read these books?Does it matter and if so/not why so/not?Edited by Admin, : Change title from "Tomes".Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Hey DA I didn't know you started off as a believer..? Tell us more about your "path".........? I think I agree.....sort of. My aim in reading the OotS (Origin of the Species) was more defined by the EvC debate than any desire to update myself on evolutionary theory which would obviously be served better by examining more current research.I wanted to understand the origin and foundation of the perceived "enemy". Despite the somewhat hypocritical fact that I have not properly read the bible I would agree that it should be considered a significant and worthwhile part of our cultural heritage that every educated person should have some knowledge of. I remain unclear as to what I am exactly (although some other EvC members might have some unflattering suggestions as to the answer to that question - ) but what is the difference between an "agnostic atheist" and a "atheistic agnostic" (which I think I might be?)?

My bollock laden advocacy of atheism is not usually something that is disputed here at EvC.... Maybe I am weird. Maybe I am coming at it from a different perspective than you did. But I am finding it insightful and revealing. The ramblings of a sometime inspired, sometimes dangerous and sometimes just plain stupid dispirate collection of human beings..... Good for you. I have read bits of the Koran but have thus far been unable to seperate these readings from the truly depressing arguments that inspired these forays into Islamicism. Ah now I have read most of that. There is a book by Melvyn Bragg called the "12 Books That Changed the World". Principia, Origin and the King James version of the bible are all included in that list and it is a revealing read in itself http://www.amazon.co.uk/...-That-Changed-World/dp/0340839805

The 12 are as follows:Principia Mathematica - Isaac Newton
Married Love - Marie Stopes
Magna Carta - Various
The Rule Book of Association Football - Various
On The Origin of Species - Charles Darwin
On The Abolition of The Slave Trade - William Wilberforce
A Vindication Of The Rights Of Women - Mary Wollstoncraft
Experimental Researches in Electricity - Michael Faraday
Patent Specification For Arkwrights Spinning Machine - Richard Arkwright
The King James Bible - William Tyndale (+50 scholars appointed by the King)
An Inquiry Into The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations - Adam Smith
The First Folio - William ShakespeareThe definition of "book" is loose to say the least and the benefit of hindsight is embraced wholeheartedly. But agree or disagree with the various inclusions/exclusions it is, in my view, an interesting read on the thoughts that have shaped the "world" (specifically the Western world) as we know it. The author makes no real apologies for his subjective choices but he does (again in my opinion) a fine job of justifying those choices in the intended context.

How important (or unimportant) do you think it is for those taking part in the whole EvC debate to have read these two books?Is OotS a redundant read in this context now that we have more complete knowledge from more up to date sources?Do you think that those who advocate the E in the EvC should have a decent knowledge of the bible?Would those who advocate the C in the EvC do well read OotS or would a more up to date text be more relevant?Or are the details of the two books irrelevant as long as one knows enough about the current evidence and arguments for/against each position?Just interested in people's thoughts, no great agenda or well founded position regards any of this on my part........

Oh who the hell knows? I certainly don't claim to know. I have no doubt that the logical, rational and evidentially valid position is to conclude a degree of atheism. But I am far less certain as to what degree of non-belief, of atheism, is justified on these grounds than I like to admit. Possibly even to myself. I also remain paradoxically hopeful (at times anyway) that there is "more" than rational logic, reason, science and the search for "truth" can hope to account for.Having said all of that I am however absolutely sure that anyone who claims a faith based position on the basis of logic or anything that can meaningfully be called "evidence" is pissing in the wind to such an extent that they should be considered intellectually incontinent to all intents and purposes.In a more naive incarnation at EvC I wrote this in one of my more absurd (not to mention inebriated) moments of existential angst Message 1. You might find it amusing given the impression of certainty I am obviously giving.Anyway let's not go down the "what is atheism route" here. And for God's sake don't get me ranting on about the nature of possibilities again or I will have to break my own fingers to shut myself up....... My previous comment was too flippant. The bible is a book I feel that I have never done justice to. I have mainly used it as a reference when debating theists and it deserves more effort from me than that. It is obviously a deeply important book to have some understanding of if you have any interest in history, philosophy etc. etc.I hope to get round to giving it the attention it deserves one day as well as the other holy books you and others have mentioned.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.