Saddam's a bad guy, so we should....

This is an apolitical post, and only concerned with the welfare of the United States, so please no Right/Left wing replies.First of all, everybody be quiet. Anybody on this forum who has ever worked for the government or knows anybody who has ever held a security clearance knows that nobody outside the White House knows *anything* about what is really going on. That makes *anybody* who is not Bush, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or senior intelligence staff rushing to judgement about this issue a fool, plain and simple. My impression is that nobody in the House or Senate knows anything substantive. Certainly nobody on this board or in the media knows anything.To think that all these men (besides Bush) all signed on to a march to war because Bush is angry or his feelings are hurt minimizes them and the responsibility they have been given to protect the US, and it doesn't make any sense besides. Any reasonable observer would conclude that their haste and insistence about Saddam Hussein indicate that they know something that they are unable to divulge at the present time, something that is pretty terrible and scary. Bush intimated in his state of the union address that Iraq may have nuclear weapons already. Certainly news outlets have published articles hinting that portable nukes from the former Soviet states have "disappeared". We also know that al Quaeda are capable of slipping into the country in shipping containers and through the porous US-Canada and US-Mexico borders. This is serious business and it would behoove Americans to shut up and sit tight.Nobody has fired a shot yet (except the Iraqis, who continue to fire SAM missiles at US airplanes), and for those Americans out there -- to try and hobble your own President in time of war is foolish, regardless of your politics.

Hi Shiloh, I agree. I would hope that before any significant military action takes place, it would be clear to the American people that such action is necessary. At the same time, I accept that on a 'need to know' basis I do not necessarily need to know or approve of every action the President or the military, acting under his direction, takes. The President is granted certain powers by the Constitution for this reason.What I object to mainly is the Hollywood 'elite' and pacifist organizations and figures making an outcry against a war against Iraq that has not even begun. My question is, how does Susan Sarandon 'know' that Iraq is not prepared to supply nuclear arms to terrorist organizations? Give me a break.[This message has been edited by zipzip, 01-31-2003]

It would be nice for the Middle East to have at least one democracy besides Israel. Democracies tend to be our friends, because we tend to have a mutual interest in freedom and human rights.

The US has an excellent human rights records. Every country has made mistakes, but the US has consistently been a champion for human rights and freedom throughout the world. C'mon -- we have the only free, open, and diverse society in the world, and we give 60% of the world's foreign aid.Just ask Europe about WWII and the holocaust, ask East-West Berlin who got the better deal. Ask Chinese Christians or Falun Gong how they like their torture and persecution. Ask women from most Middle Eastern countries how they like their place in society. Actually, most countries in the UN are essentially tin-horn dictatorships with little or no regard for human rights. And rarely does anybody besides the US lead the charge to prevent human rights abuses. Even in Europe -- who led the charge to help the Kosovars(there was no UN resolution there, folks)? Go ahead and bash the US. But without the US the world would be in a lot worse shape today.I don't know how to really look at the Israeli human rights record -- it was great until the intifada and then they had a nest of swarming terrorists on their hands blowing up their citizens. Hard to have a free an open society for non-citizens who want to kill you.We can't guarantee post-war Iraq will have different goals. But its current state is pretty awful, and I can't see how a free society could be nearly this bad.

I think it is pretty clear that politicians in the US were using the ends justifies the means mentality to fight Communism. Bad men were allowed to remain in power to stem the tide of what was considered the greater evil -- expansionist Communism and possible Communist takeover of the entire world, including the West. Although I may not agree with the methods, I do agree with the aims.Part of our problem in the prisons is that those people are in prison because they deserve to be there. In China you are probably there for some other reason. We have a lot of very free people in this country who are unfortunately free to do bad things and hurt other people.As far as your argument for Europe. Don't get me wrong, I have been to Europe recently and have a number of European friends that I have deep affection for. But by and large, Europeans are dissipated, work 30 h weeks (if you have ever had to work on a European timetable, you start to wonder how anything ever gets done -- these guys are lazy), pay incredibly high taxes (70%) to live in a coddling, stifling socialist network and allow the US to take the brunt of enforcement of UN resolutions when there are any. I do not see how Europe has been a lone champion of human rights in any way.As far as the discussion topic of this thread goes -- it is a joke to hear Germany warn about the path to war -- c'mon, you are still smarting from giving the world Hitler. And France -- c'mon, the last time you were in this position, you let the Nazi war machine roll right over you unimpeded. Maybe we shouldn't go to war, but I would prefer that the histrionics not come from our European friends, who have a historical knack for screwing things up.As far as Israeli human rights...what exactly would you do different? The Arab world is rabidly anti-Semitic, period. These two groups cannot live together and never will, and I see no way out except isolation of the two groups. Obviously suicide bombings need to stop --these are murder and an act of war. If Canada started sending suicide bombers across the border, the border would be closed and/or we would go to war. I realize that the occupied territories are not Canada, but there is not good analogy because the PA is a demonstrably corrupt organization that funds terrorism against Israel.[This message has been edited by zipzip, 02-05-2003]

Geez...you seem to have a problem with our criminal justice system. Few people are in prison for breaking laws they did not know existed. Everybody knows that it is illegal to steal someone else's car, but there are a lot of people in prison for that crime. The fact that they may be disproportionately minorities does not change that. Should we make grand theft auto a misdemeanor or perhaps not a crime at all?As far as the drug war, the problem has really been protection of the populace. As a physician, I am keenly aware that most banned substances are potentially deadly and/or extremely addictive.opiods -- ever had to drain an abcess from a heroin abuser who was so addicted heroin was the only thing in his life he gave a damn about? Who would do semi-surgical procedures on himself to get a hit? Have mercy -- heroin destroys life completely. It is the saddest thing I have ever seen and there is no safe recreational form, period.cocaine-- cardiac arrest, anyone? This is idiosyncratic and nobody can be informed enough of the risks to make it acceptable. It kills and I for one do not want to have to spend another 1000 hours doing CPR on another 1000 dead kids (it hurts to think of these people because it is such a $%#& waste).pot -- who knows what pot does, but it does have some long term neurolgical sequelae that young kids cannot be informed adequately about. It also makes sherm (pot+formaldehyde) which has produced some of the most messed-up, psychotic, and destroyed kids I have ever seen. A recent study shows that kids who smoke pot are at much increased risk of moving on to more deadly drugs. Pot is not a safe drug...move on.MDMA/ecstasy -- who knows how many cases of HIV this has led to, deaths from hyperthermia, etc. Also long term neurological sequelae likely. Of course it encourages the use of banned substances that are more likely to kill immediately.GABA derivatives -- psychosis inducing.Drug users should not be in jail. But as far as I am concerned, having seen what they do, drug pushers should be put to death. I hate what they do with a passion that knows no bounds.Now, as far as Europe...have your own opinions. But Arab countries know only strength and weakness, and they despise weakness and will take advantage of it.[This message has been edited by zipzip, 02-07-2003]