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Author Topic:   Disagreeing with laws and upholding laws and arguing they should be upheld
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 8 of 79 (441703)
12-18-2007 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
12-18-2007 2:42 PM


Breakin' the law, breakin' the law...
Ringo writes:
What does defying a law accomplish in changing it?
I don't know much about Canadian history. You folks have always seemed like kinder, gentler Americans. I don't know how you got to that place.
But I know that dramatic changes in U.S. laws came about in part because a nice black lady refused to give up her seat to a white man--in violation of the law. Black people were arrested for sitting down at white-only lunch counters--in violation of the law.
Soon after, the world watched vicious dogs and rabid deputies attack black folks who marched for justice even though they had been denied permission to do so under the law.
I'm with Thoreau (and Silent H) on this one:
quote:
...if [an injustice] is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine." -- Henry David Thoreau
Civil disobedience is a fine and necessary tradition. One does then expect prosecution under the law, but one also expects the opportunity to argue that the law is unjust and should not be upheld.
Ringo writes:
Defiance is more likely to polarize people against the defiant than to build a consensus that can be used in a democratic process.
Sometimes the democratic consensus has to be whacked to get its attention.
People who organize against injustice are often warned not to alienate the moderates, lest the extremists gain power. But moderates are not agents of change; watching the consequences of defying the law can force them to recognize the need for change.
Democracy has virtues, but it is not virtuous: a privileged majority can natter on for decades (or centuries) and never come to a consensus to surrender their privilege.
Sometimes it takes dramatic, polarizing action to effect change.
Edited by Omnivorous, : subtitle got unjustly chopped off

Real things always push back.
-William James
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 12-18-2007 2:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 12-18-2007 3:31 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 12-18-2007 3:48 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 18 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-18-2007 4:13 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 11 of 79 (441717)
12-18-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
12-18-2007 3:24 PM


Silent H writes:
When I was being processed for the military (long ago and didn't finish) there was a point where I was being told that soldiers are allowed to defy their orders if they feel it conflicts with law (including the Constitution). They have that right... though they are likely to find themselves in the pokey until their case is reviewed.
In fact, they have not only the right under military law to refuse unlawful orders but an obligation.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 12 of 79 (441719)
12-18-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
12-18-2007 3:31 PM


Re: Breakin' the law, breakin' the law...
Silent H writes:
Indeed. I love that opening line... is it yours, or is it borrowed? I plan to borrow it so I thought I should ask.
I made it up while reflecting on why I both adore and distrust democracy. Feel free to use it.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 12-18-2007 3:31 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 22 of 79 (441748)
12-18-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
12-18-2007 3:44 PM


Ringo writes:
Well, it was a consensus that brought Prohibition in in the first place. Was the change in consensus caused by defiance of the law?
Yes.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 12-18-2007 3:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 12-18-2007 5:21 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 23 of 79 (441749)
12-18-2007 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
12-18-2007 3:48 PM


Re: Breakin' the law, breakin' the law...
Ringo writes:
Do I have to put it in my signature? I'm not talking about unjust laws.
I agree with you about unjust laws.
Good.
After the revolution, we'll take care of you.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 31 of 79 (441785)
12-18-2007 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
12-18-2007 5:21 PM


Anti-German sentiment, actually, had a great deal to do with Prohibition in the U.S. (1920-1933, check out the Anti-Saloon League).
Protestant religious hysteria also played a part: there were people out there having fun, and they had to be stopped.
Ringo writes:
On Monday, 51% pass Prohibition. On Tuesday, 49% defy Prohibition. On Wednesday, 2% change their minds. On Thursday, 51% repeal Prohibition. On Friday, 51% miss work.
How do we know what changed the two-percenters' minds?
Demagoguery can readily capture a temporary majority. Fortunately, dry reality checks by far more than 2% saved the day. The prevalence of speakeasies, bathtub gin, and Kennedy whiskey mocked prohibition into its grave.
Prohibit in haste, thirst at leisure, I say.
AbE: Oh yeah--the fact that most Americans ignored the law and thereby empowered a vast criminal enterprise was also relevant.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 12-18-2007 5:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 42 of 79 (441815)
12-18-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by macaroniandcheese
12-18-2007 3:53 PM


brenna writes:
the problem is that their defiance may put lives at risk. it seems very simple, but it's not.
It is simple, although it isn't easy.
We have much more to fear from complaisant civil servants than defiant ones.
Weigh the lives lost by robotic, obedient civil servants in one hand, and those lost by defiant ones in the other: notice how the first hand is smashed and bloody while the second is nearly empty.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-18-2007 3:53 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
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