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Author Topic:   Disagreeing with laws and upholding laws and arguing they should be upheld
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 79 (441850)
12-18-2007 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
12-18-2007 2:22 PM


The weightier matters of the law
When a person disagrees with a law, must it be upheld, and must it be argued that it should be upheld just because it is on the books?
I wholly disagree with the idea that a law must be upheld, and more importantly that one must argue it should be upheld by the state, when it is unjust. I personally do not understand such a thought process, or how laws become changed without both a refusal to carry out laws that are considered unjust, or arguing that they should not be carried out.
That's kind of a tough question. I think in general that you should follow the laws of the land to keep cohesion, and to present yourself as blameless.
Where it should be fought is through legislature.
However, that doesn't account for atrocious laws, such as could be seen in Nazi Germany. I mean, if it became the law to kill someone just because of their race, or whatever, that would be egregious. And I would defy the authorities.
But I think as a general rule of thumb, people must pick and choose their battles carefully.
Suppose that you disliked the concept of stopping at red lights. And you just flat out decide that, gosh darn it, you aren't going to stop at them any more as a way to stick to the Man. Well, now you are just being dangerous and stupid.
Perhaps a discussion like this can't glean any blanket answers collectively.
This may be completely extraneous, but since it in many ways guides how I view things, I will throw it in for now. Feel free to object.
When Jesus was condemning the Pharisees for their legalism, what was he arguing against? Surely it was not the Law he was arguing against. Rather, he said, "You neglect the weightier matters of the Law."
What exactly does he mean?
My interpretation of that whole verse is that the Pharisees became too bogged down on following the law to the letter. In so doing, they completely overlooked the meaning behind why the law was in place to begin with! One cannot look at the law in a mechanical way. The law must be viewed in spirit to get to the moral of it.
No one can argue that the law is in and of itself a bad thing. But like most things, it can be manipulated to one's favor. The Chief Priests were notorious for doing this. And truth be told, THIS is exactly what some secularists have a problem with when it comes to fundamental Christianity.
And in many cases, they have a point! Even amongst Christians, there is always talk of legalism -- who is being too rigid, too legalistic, and essentially missing the point altogether.
I think it is a wise thing to do to understand why a law exists. Don't just usurp it because you don't want to live by it, but don't be follow it in robotic fashion either. Get to the weightier matter first, and then it might become that much clearer for you.
That's my two cents.... Don't spend it all in one place.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 12-18-2007 2:22 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 79 (443182)
12-23-2007 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
12-18-2007 8:36 PM


In the U.S., you seem to be saying it's, "I'm not going to obey that @#$%ing law. Let 'em come and get me!" And the really bad nuts start building bombs in the basement.
Now, I'm not saying that there actually is a difference between Canada and the U.S in the way we approach a bad-law situation. It's just that Canadians are , at least, a little embarassed about breaking a bad law. You guys seem to revel in it.
That seems like you're painting with an awfully big brush. I mean, yeah, there are those yahoo's in this country -- lots of them. But to insinuate that such things don't occur in Canada would be absurd.
And yes, many, many Americans are uncouth, spoiled brats. But I'd bet that it seems as if more reside here simply by virtue of the exposure that America has in the rest of the world. No other country is more scrutinized than America. Not to mention that this is the third most populated country in the world.
Perhaps if we were to break it down per capita, the disparity wouldn't be so glaring.
The way I use the word "upholding", it means doing whatever is within the law. Failure to arrest might be a dereliction of a police officer's duty, but it isn't a violation of the law. Pressing a different charge might be a bad judgement call on the prosecuter's part, but it isn't a violation of the law.
Officer discretion is a tricky subject because it can easily go in either direction -- either too harsh, or too lenient. Or conversely, too harsh on one person, while too lenient with someone else for the same infraction.
This is why there are the "spirit of the law" versus the "letter of the law" arguments. The law has to be written rigidly. But I think that it can flex without breaking in some instances.
But I'm not sure it applies to changing the law at the legislative level. Politicians aren't more likely to repeal a law if people are breaking it. They're more likely to put more "teeth" into it.
In some cases, yes. Perhaps even in most. The more drugs flow in to the country, the more the government steps up its effort to combat it rather than legalize it. But with others, like Prohibition, the government finally acquiesced to public demand.
The question isn't whether or not the Roe v. Wade decision had an impact on subsequent lawmaking. The question is whether or not the Roe v. Wade decision was influenced by defiance of existing laws. Was it? (I've just told you just about all I know about Roe v. Wade.)
In some ways I think it was. After all, these kinds of cases only make it to the Supreme Court because of it controversiality. Other precedents tend to be struck down or upheld in lesser courts.
If Prohibition and its repeal were the norm instead of an anomaly, can we expect to see a similar repeal of current drug laws any time soon? If not, I would question how effective the law-breaking strategy is.
I am neither in total agreement with you or Silent on this issue. I don't think you should break a law simply because you don't like it. (Imagine if someone tried that with murder, rape, or arson)? I happen to think that such things, as you said, are handled best through legislation and protest.
Having said that, this certainly wouldn't apply to other things. It may have been the lawful duty of German Stormtroopers to carry out executions of Jews, just because they are Jews. Wouldn't you defy that law?
My impression is that loosening of Canadian drug laws had a lot to do with medical use of marijuana (and a little to do with getting Americans' goats) and not much to do with law-breaking protests. Locally, we had a fellow who was legally entitled to use medicinal marijuana arrested repeatedly for smoking it on the courthouse steps. His protest for even looser laws was supported by smokers but had little sympathy from non-smokers and none from law enforcement or legislature.
Yeah... See, he was just being an ass by trying to thumb his nose at the Man instead of enjoying his small victory for being allowed to legally blaze up at all. So he thought he'd put on a big show for everyone. Once arrested, the joke was on him.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 12-18-2007 8:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2007 11:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 12-24-2007 1:19 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 79 (443389)
12-24-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Silent H
12-23-2007 11:47 PM


Relatively speaking
for those that fall under the law, while they should do anything they can to protect themselves, they should defy it. Not defying it just because it is illegal, but because their activity shouldn't be illegal and its something that they normally do. Its those people I feel the statement that one has a duty to defy unjust laws is particularly meant for. Do not bow, just because it is law.
Okay, I would agree dependent upon what we are talking about. Obviously there is some disparity from it being lawful to wash your hands after you use the restroom if you are a food handler to it being illegal to slash somebodies throat because you thought they looked at you funny.
My initial interpretation of the OP was that if you disagree with a law, you should just shirk it off. But is breaking several laws in the process, just to protest one law really the answer?

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2007 11:47 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 12-25-2007 2:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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