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Author | Topic: What does everyone think about Nutrional Supplements? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
did i say there was no reciprocity? no. i just said ew gross.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Schraff writes: No. Again, I will concede the point. Erring on the side of caution appears to be your modus operendi. A wise scientific move, perhaps. Buzz is right about the established medical profession rejecting nutritional solutions. The Doctors are cautious, but they and their pharmaceutical brethren are all too quick to use drugs instead. What Doctor wants no patients?? If you can show me some relavent reasearch to show that megadoses of vitamins can cure disease, or that megadoses of Viamin C can cure or prevent the common cold, then I will certainly reconsider. BTW in ref. to "curing or preventing" disease. The best method is plenty of exercise and lots of water. Don't give the "bugs' a place or a means to live. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-22-2005 09:10 AM
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phatboy writes:
I'm just about to go out for a three or four hour walk (trek?) in the hot sun, during which time I plan to dehydrate. (Water is safe to drink only when diluted with caffeine. ) The best method is plenty of exercise and lots of water. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
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Gary Inactive Member |
I take a ginseng and royal jelly suppliment. It helps keep this oldie perked. Well I'm sure that ginseng can have some effect on the human body, I mean coffee does too. However taking it as a supplement the way my roommate does seems like a waste of money. His supplement also advertises spirulina algae as "the wonder food of the Aztecs", and looking that up, I found that they ate cakes of it. It was one of their staple foods. I doubt that taking pills with it would give anything other than a placebo effect. Also, does that ginseng that you take tell you about how important it is to take "organic iron" and chlorophyll? I just think that many of these supplements are at the very least poorly researched and at worst advertised as panaceas, which of course simply don't work. They take advantage of ignorant people who believe that anything with the word "natural" on it is good for them, and sick people who have otherwise run out of other useful options.
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Gary Inactive Member |
You might want to look at this webpage about Dr. Day:
http://www.quackwatch.org/...ryRelatedTopics/Cancer/day.html One explanation they give is that Dr. Day's tumor was removed by surgery, and later problems she had were emotional.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Have a look at this site which skeptically and logically examines Day's claims on her website, including the video you think is so amazing.
The idea that diet can cure cancer by "strengthening the immune system" is a fairy tale. Immune responses take place when foreign proteins or other antigens encounter certain white blood cells. Although cancer cells grow abnormally, their surface antigens remain like those of normal cells and therefore are not detected by the immune system [15]. Moreover, in most cases of cancer, the immune system functions normally; and there is no evidence the common cancers increase when the immune system is severely weakened. People who are given immunosuppressant drugs to treat arthritis or prevent rejection of transplanted organs, or who are immunodeficient because of hereditary disease or AIDS, are not prone to develop any of the common cancers. Rather, they tend to develop unusual cancers?such as Kaposi's sarcoma in AIDS?that arise from cells made abnormal by the underlying diseases [16]. Although diet is a factor in whether cancer develops, there is no scientific evidence or logical reason to believe that dietary strategies can cure cancer. The idea that a "natural diet" can do so is absurd. In recent years, medical scientists have proven that cancer results when the genes that control cell growth mutate. Genes govern and control all basic physical traits, including eye color, hair color, skin color, and even tendencies toward some diseases, such as diabetes. Day's claims are the equivalent of saying that eating raw vegetables can change blond hair to brunette [17]. Even if Day is correct that her methods are the answer to cancer, how can she be certain? Has she ever done a study to see whether people who follow her advice appear to benefit? Does she make any effort to gather follow-up information? Does she know?or care?what happens to cancer patients who abandon standard medical treatment after viewing her videotapes? I know of one case in which a 68-year-old man with cancer in his throat and behind his nose canceled scheduled treatment with radiation after seeing one of Day's videotapes. At that time, the doctors thought this treatment had 70% chance of curing him. Without treatment, however, the cancer gradually spread to the surrounding tissues. Over a two-year period, the cancer became extremely painful and ate a hole through the roof of his mouth that makes it difficult for him to eat without the food going out his nose. Radiation and chemotherapy therapy made the cancer disappear from his nose and throat, but it has recurred at the base of his brain. Chemotherapy may still prolong his survival, but his trust in Day's story reduced the quality of his life and appears to have shortened it by several years. Another case I know about involves a 39-year-old woman who suddenly discovered that she had a malignant melanoma that had metastasized to her brain. The doctors thought that without treatment she might live for a few months and that with chemotherapy, she might live for up to a year. Some people in this situation decide that they want to live as long as possible, whereas others decide that it would not be worth suffering with chemotherapy for such a short extension. After listening to Day's tapes, this woman became terrified about chemotherapy and decided that Day's methods would cure her. She lived for about two more months, during which she stopped eating nearly everything she enjoyed and ate mostly raw vegetables and fruits. Before she got sick, eating had been one of her favorite activities. But during her final weeks, she felt miserable because she craved her usual foods, but she would not eat them and wound up "basically starving herself" and losing 40 pounds. I advise people who are terminally ill to spend their remaining time as pleasantly and productively as possible. The patient's older sister, who shared this story with me, believes that Day's advice greatly reduced the patient's quality of life. If someone's claims seem to be outlandish, fantastic, and impossible they probably are. This next bit is my favorite. Tell me, is this woman a crackpot or what?
Day's 10-tape audio series, "Conquering Confusion about your medical treatment," illustrates the expansive nature of her thinking. Throughout these tapes, she describes a conspiracy for world domination?with roots going back over 200 years?whose elements include the AIDS virus (created to reduce world population from 6 billion to 500 million); fluoridation; vaccination; pornography; gun control; food irradiation; chemotherapy; radiation treatments; bank centralization; junk food; the medical profession; television programming; computer games (used to program children); subliminal television messages; rock music (a basic "beat" was created to make young people "susceptible to drugs and sex"); the CIA; government-controlled food-management organizations; "the Illuminati" (who began working toward a new world order in 1776); the Rockefeller Foundation, the American Cancer Society; laser and DVD technology; television boxes (that can be used to spy on people) the Communist Manifesto (promoted by the U.S. Government); the news media (behind every story there is a plan controlled from a central source); rewriting of school textbooks; cover-up of the real killers of President John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Princess Diana, and Martin Luther King; "diabolic plans for your health care"; melting of the polar ice cap; and plans by National Aeronautic and Space Agency (NASA) to use rocket power to relocate the Earth further way from the Sun. To guard against these many alleged dangers, she advises everyone to stop watching commercial television (because after only a few minutes, watchers lose the ability to think rationally and resist the "lies" that permeate our society). She also states that cancer patients cannot get well if they work or watch television and that getting medical care and taking medication are a betrayal of God [3]. Buz, you really shouldn't be so credulous regarding your health. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-22-2005 04:15 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What? All we have been hearing from the "medical establishment" is that nutrition (and exercise) is extremely important for good health and for preventing disease especially heart disease and cancer, but that people in the US don't generally listen and want to sit on the couch and eat Big Macs and Cheetos and drink Coke. It's the patients that want the drugs, Phat, because they don't want to change their lifestyle to eat better and exercise. They want an easy "magic pill". What do you expect doctors to do, just let their recalcitrant patients die because they refuse to eat better and go to the gym? Even you have recently said that even though you have a very compelling medical reason to change your lifestyle, you are resistant. Also, I have never once been told by any doctor to NOT take vitamin supplements. In fact, I was just advised by my OB/GYN to start taking a multivitamin, and both my husband and I have had blood tests to see if we were deficient in anything. The thing with taking supplements casually is that everyone is different and every substance and vitamin interacts and affects the uptake or effectiveness of other needed nutrients. You might need extra vitamin C, but if I take it it could inhibit the uptake of some other nutrient and cause problems. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-22-2005 04:03 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Another good one:
One of the world's most popular supplements, the chemical coenzyme Q10 has generated great excitement as a heart disease remedy and a cure for countless other conditions. The body naturally produces this compound, which has been dubbed "vitamin Q" because of its essential role in keeping all systems running smoothly. In fact, the scientists who identified coenzyme Q10 in 1957 initially honored its ubiquitous presence--it's found in every human cell and in all living organisms--by naming it "ubiquinone." Small amounts are also present in most foods. I have yet to see anything bad about it. Overuse is un-necessary, however. A member of a family of compounds called quinones, coenzyme Q10 (sometimes called Co Q10) works in concert with enzymes (hence the name "coenzyme") that are necessary for chemical reactions throughout the body. It is particularly abundant in high-energy-demanding cells, such as those found in the heart. In addition, coenzyme Q10 acts as a powerful antioxidant to prevent the cellular damage caused by unstable oxygen molecules called free radicals. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-22-2005 02:49 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, why do we need to take it as a supplement if the body naturally produces it?
quote: Well, has it been put through any kind of testing to determine what good or bad it does, if any? How does it perform against a placebo control group? How does one determine the correct dosage? Does it interact with any other drugs or substances? Are there any ethnic groups or other groups which need more or less of it? Does it make any particular conditions worse? Are there any side effects? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-23-2005 08:12 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Are you going to comment upon what I wrote about the medical profession and nutrition?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hey...I agree with you, by and large. I DO know about supplements, however. CO-Q10 has been studied extensively.
Chiefly studied bythis guy,CO-Q10 has passed numerous tests. this site also has some reliable info. Yes...it is always easy to understand solutions, but not always easy to internalize the reality of common sense. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-23-2005 07:50 AM
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Phatboy
One of the world's most popular supplements, the chemical coenzyme Q10 has generated great excitement as a heart disease remedy and a cure for countless other conditions It is not a heart disease "remedy".Please be aware of buzzwords such as this.It does have some efficiecy in cases of myocardial infarction and certain other problems.People who are healthy need not take it and those with heart conditions may gain some benfit.The above paragraphs last line is especially disturbing {a cure for countless other conditions} since this is snakeoil salesmanship at its finest and blaatntly misleading as well as false. What advantage do you see for people who take supplements as opposed to those who do not? Do you know if there is documentation to show that this is so? This message has been edited by sidelined, Mon, 2005-05-23 08:26 AM In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. Douglas Adams
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Read an excerpt of this interview:
think let's start with a couple of the supplements from the proven category, and ask you both to address the research behind them. Let's start with fish oil supplements. What do they do?
NATE LEBOWITZ, MD: As a cardiologist, I can tell you that I think fish oil has clearly entered the standard of care or mainstream range. And I think this was highlighted by a very large study last summer, with thousands of Italian men who had had a heart attack. Those who were put on fish oil, or omega-3 supplements from fish oil, had a dramatic drop in arrhythmias, sudden death from arrhythmias, and repeat heart attack. So we're clearly in the realm, and we've also known that it lower triglycerides, it can help with cholesterol, and it can help protect your arteries. LISA CLARK: Sam, how much and how often should people be taking fish oil supplements? SAM BENJAMIN, MD: I think the dose varies, and I don't want to be held to this. I think it also depends on the medications you're taking. For example, if somebody is on Coumadin, or is taking aspirin, or both of those, they really need to discuss this with their physician, because fish oils as well will affect the clotting mechanism, and that's an important consideration. If they have other problems going on, for example, if they had hemorrhoids, for example. Somebody that I treated, that became a real problem. You need to be very careful about it. If they happen to have other issues like inflammatory bowel disease, the dose would vary. So I think it's something they need to think about. And they need to consider the options. Flaxseed oil, if they can't handle the fish oil. And the other possibility -- well, I suppose flaxseed oil would be the best -- hemp oil, which can be gotten in stores, and is not psychotropic, but does come from the marijuana plant, are definitely possibilities. LISA CLARK: And they all have those omega acids in them. SAM BENJAMIN, MD: They have omega-3 and, in fact, the flaxseed and hemp have a substantial amount of omega-6 fatty acids, which are also really good for you. LISA CLARK: Let's talk about Resveratrol. Now, this is made from the skin of grapes. What's so beneficial about grape skin? NATE LEBOWITZ, MD: It's interesting that, again, this comes from the observation that certain populations of the world who eat a high fat diet, but who also drink red wine every night, have relatively lower levels of heart disease than you would expect, relative to the amount of fat that they take in. So the studies were done, and they found that in the skin of the grape, there is a substance that has almost 50 times the antioxidant ability of even Vitamin-E, for instance, and has been a home remedy. The sister compound is called picnogenol, and is made from the bark of the pine tree, and has been used as a home remedy for varicose veins in Europe for decades. So we're finding now that in very good basic science studies, that it really helps the arteries, and it really protects the arteries. LISA CLARK: What about drinking red wine or grape juice? I've heard that the dark grape juice is beneficial as well. NATE LEBOWITZ, MD: Absolutely. You can drink a glass or two of red wine, or have a lot of grapes. Or, again, you can take a supplement. LISA CLARK: The benefit of taking these supplements is that it's available in a much more concentrated form than you would be able to ingest in a normal diet. SAM BENJAMIN, MD: I think one of the problems is twofold. First, you do want to encourage people to some amount to consider the supplements. On the other hand, what you can get in your diet naturally is always going to be the best way. One of the problems with supplements is that we can purify out sometimes, in what's called standardization in production, some of the more important but barely detectable active ingredients that could get lost in the production process. So I would encourage people to consider either red wine -- in moderation, mind you -- or grape juice. And certainly considering Resveratrol as a supplement is definitely something that might be useful if you don't have the time to do it. LISA CLARK: Let's talk about another supplement, L-carnitine. What is this supposed to do? NATE LEBOWITZ, MD: In the realm of cardiology, this may be a supplement that has really entered the prime time. Within the last five years, in very good scientific research in good journals, L-carnitine has proven to be very useful in a number of areas. In the treatment of congestive heart failure, in the treatment of patients who are first presenting with a heart attack, or with symptoms suggestive of a heart attack, or in people who have had a heart attack, in whom you want to protect the heart from a dangerous remodeling of the left ventricle, the pumping chamber of the heart. LISA CLARK: Again, there are so many things that you hear about in the media. L-carnitine is one. And so is coenzyme-Q. Ubiquinone, is that how you say it? What is the great thing about co-Q 10? That's even popping up in some cosmetics I've seen. SAM BENJAMIN, MD: In larger doses, saying somewhere between 100-300 mg a day, depending on the person, there's no question that co-Q 10 has some very positive and salutary effects in people, for example, with congestive heart failure. Probably that's the area that has been most proven clinically. It's used in Europe, not only orally, but intravenously, and its results have been very, very impressive. There are studies done by a group in Texas over the last 10-15 years, and while it has not yet met with popularity in the United States, it is something that people should consider for those that have congestive heart failure. LISA CLARK: Now, Nate, I have to ask, do most cardiologists know about these products? Are they willing to let their patients try them? NATE LEBOWITZ, MD: I think we're in an era of clear flux, where traditionally academically trained cardiologists are, in some cases, being pushed by their patients to learn about these things. The problem is that a lot of us did not receive official training about nutrition in general in medical school, and we're picking this up on our own. In this country, there really hasn't traditionally been a lot of research done about these things, and it's been done in Europe and the rest of the world. LISA CLARK: Let me mention briefly a few other things that you might have seen at your health food store as being beneficial for heart disease. Green tea extracts. SAM BENJAMIN, MD: Green tea extracts have this wonderful thing called polyphenols. Polyphenols lower serum cholesterol, and they do it in a substantial way. They are safe. I have not yet learned of any drug interactions or herb/herb interactions with polyphenols. The dosage has yet to be clearly ascertained, but there is nothing wrong with it. The polyphenols, in an extract form, do not have caffeine in them. They have a salutary effect, and I think that people should strongly consider them, especially in the prevention of heart disease. If you have elevated serum cholesterol, you can take whatever your doctor prescribes, and consider the polyphenols as well. Would I tell my doctor about it? Absolutely. But is it something that one should consider? I think so.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Phatboy
I do not mean to say that any of these compounds do or do not have an effect,but you must make sure that proper controls are done.For instance in this post of yours we have this.
LISA CLARK: Sam, how much and how often should people be taking fish oil supplements? SAM BENJAMIN, MD: I think the dose varies, and I don't want to be held to this. I think it also depends on the medications you're taking. For example, if somebody is on Coumadin, or is taking aspirin, or both of those, they really need to discuss this with their physician, because fish oils as well will affect the clotting mechanism, and that's an important consideration First off,note that the MD is waffling on this. "I 'think' the dose varies and I don't want to be held to this." He is nt sure himself and he is an MD.He also goes on to make the point that cuts to the heart of these issues,other medications taken at the same time.If you are on say aspirin for a month then begin to take fish oil supplements after which there is a dramatic rise in health was it the fish oil,a combination.the fish oil itself or what of dozens of possibilities?In cases where heart problems are concerned not making the right decision on what occured is playing russian roulette Now onto the COE-Q10.We have this question and statement here
LISA CLARK: Again, there are so many things that you hear about in the media. L-carnitine is one. And so is coenzyme-Q. Ubiquinone, is that how you say it? What is the great thing about co-Q 10? That's even popping up in some cosmetics I've seen. SAM BENJAMIN, MD: In larger doses, saying somewhere between 100-300 mg a day, depending on the person, there's no question that co-Q 10 has some very positive and salutary effects in people, for example, with congestive heart failure. Probably that's the area that has been most proven clinically. It's used in Europe, not only orally, but intravenously, and its results have been very, very impressive. There are studies done by a group in Texas over the last 10-15 years, and while it has not yet met with popularity in the United States, it is something that people should consider for those that have congestive heart failure. The only thing he makes definitve statements in cocerns congetive heart failure but then he makes the pathetic arguement concerning its use in Europe and how its "very very impressive" yet does not explain what it is that is impressive about it.This is salemanship and must be taken with a grain of salt. Now compare it to this previous excerpt from a post of yours.
One of the world's most popular supplements, the chemical coenzyme Q10 has generated great excitement as a heart disease remedy and a cure for countless other conditions Heart disease is the only defintely identified application in both of these posts.The reason is because this does appear to be the case.Again,however we must be wary,since,I am sure you will agree that after suffering major damage to an organ like the heart that any improvement,howevwer slight,must be viewed as positive. This does not mean that taking supplements will be beneficial for a helthy person since the effect may only be apparent after the changes that occur in the body chemistry present in a heart disease. In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. Douglas Adams
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I wouldn't say that it has been studies extensively WTR it's effectiveness to actually treat many diseases and conditions. From what I could tell from the NIH site you linked to, there has been some research done and it's found that Q-10 has shown some promise in protecting the heart in people undergoing chemotherapy (only a certain group of drugs), and it's also shown some evidence of being a immune system booster. That's good, but there is an enormous amount of information we still don't know about it, and since the people who make it want to continue to make as much money as possible, they will contine to market it as a nutritional supplement instead of spending the money to really put it to stringent FDA drug testing. Look, the nutritional supplement industry in the US is a 19 billion dollar industry. They also don't have any requirements from the FDA to test their products for efficacy unless they make specific claims of being able to cure some condition. They can say their products "strengthen" or "enhance" whatever they want to and it doesn't have to be backked up by any kind of proof whatsoever. The earning potential is enormous, especially since they don't have to do any expensive clinical trials to test for efficacy. If you mistrust the drug companies because of profit motive, you should mistrust the nutritional supplement industry even more.
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