Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,924 Year: 4,181/9,624 Month: 1,052/974 Week: 11/368 Day: 11/11 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Early birds had dino-feet: study
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 22 of 36 (352560)
09-27-2006 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
12-01-2005 6:00 PM


So, what do we think? Does this answer the "from-the-ground-up" or "from-the-trees-down" question of how bird flight evolved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 12-01-2005 6:00 PM roxrkool has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 25 of 36 (352571)
09-27-2006 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2006 5:43 AM


No, and the same to Mr Jack.
"From the trees down" does not require the evolution of a reversed hallux before wings.
Could you elaborate, please? The article quite clearly describes the feet on this specimen as being suited for running on the ground, not perching in trees - is this an inaccurate statement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2006 5:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2006 8:22 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 27 of 36 (352605)
09-27-2006 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2006 8:22 AM


I disagree.
The "trees down" hypothesis postulates that birds evolved from tree-dwelling dinosaurs, who initially used feathers for gliding in a similar way to flying squirrels today; if this was the case we should expect to see features adapted to tree dwelling (the feet in particular) in basal birds. This isn't the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2006 8:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2006 8:20 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 33 of 36 (352880)
09-28-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2006 8:20 PM


You're assuming a lineage which did all its adapting to living in trees before it started to glide/fly. There is no reason why this should be the case.
Not so, I'm assuming it was adapted to living in trees. The article states that the feet were adapted to "running on the ground"; I asked you whether this was correct because I've not studied the fossils and don't really have the technical knowledge to determine either way anyhow. While we need not expect the features to be exactly those of perching birds, we should expect them to be those of a tree dweller not a ground runner (squirrels certainly do not have feet like those of dedicated ground dwellers such as deer, hogs or even capyburra). The "Trees Down" hypothesis does require that ancestoral "pre-birds" were tree dwellers, and this should leave us with feet adapted to tree dwelling.
The article may be overstating it's case; I don't know. But if it what it says is correct then I think this counts as a compelling reason for supporting ground-up. Although it is, of course, possible that the first birds were tree dwelling and Archaeopteryx then re-adapted for running on the ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2006 8:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2006 9:45 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 35 of 36 (353043)
09-29-2006 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
09-28-2006 9:45 PM


You're claiming that its feet should have been completely adapted to arborial living. Why?
Because that's what the "tree's down" hypothesis postulates: that bird evolved from tree dwelling creatures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2006 9:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-29-2006 12:43 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024