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Author Topic:   Early birds had dino-feet: study
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 36 (265486)
12-04-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
12-01-2005 6:00 PM


National Geographic Article
It's not just the feet, but the skull and the shape and articulation of other bones:
National Geographic article: Earliest Bird Had Feet Like Dinosaur, Fossil Shows (click)
A 150-million-year-old fossil of Archaeopteryx, long considered the oldest bird, may put to rest any scientific doubt that dinosaurs”specifically the group of two-legged meat-eaters known as theropods”gave rise to modern birds.
The skull is the only Archaeopteryx specimen that reveals a bird's-eye view of the species' upper head surface.
"[It] presents important new details of the skull morphology [shape and function] of the earliest known bird," he said, "showing also that the skull of Archaeopteryx is much more similar to that of nonavian theropod dinosaurs than previously thought."
The animal's feet, both of them perfectly preserved, attracted the researchers' particular attention.
Archaeopteryx, the fossil shows, had a hyperextendible second toe. Until now, the feature was thought to belong only to the species' close relatives, the deinonychosaurs. (The name means "fearsome claws." The deinonychosaur Velociraptor wielded switchblade-like examples of these talons in the movie Jurrasic Park.)
Contrary to all previous reconstructions of Archaeopteryx, the hind toe of the new specimen is not completely reversed to form a "perching" foot as it is in modern birds.
In the new fossil, the foot looks more like that of the four-toed foot of Velociraptor and its other nonwinged theropod relatives. The specimen clearly lacks a reversed toe.
The shape and articulation of other bones of the new specimen also help tie Archaeopteryx to the theropods.
The bones of its hind legs, for example, have played an important role in the dispute about bird ancestry. The new Archaeopteryx specimen shows a clearly visible hind leg bone structure that is identical to that of theropod dinosaurs.
Of course we'll have to listen to rants about how it was falsly portrayed before etc....
Looks like the link is pretty solid now .... therapod to archy to birds.
Enjoy
This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*04*2005 03:04 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by Omnivorous, posted 12-05-2005 8:38 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 36 (265555)
12-04-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Theus
12-04-2005 1:53 AM


Re: Small museums and big displays
Welcome to the fray theus.
I trust that you have taken the opportunity to see this fossil?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 36 (265838)
12-05-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Omnivorous
12-05-2005 9:47 AM


Re: Small museums and big displays
... I actually don't exercise at all well when restrained...
but it can be so much fun ....

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 36 (265893)
12-05-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Omnivorous
12-05-2005 8:38 AM


Re: National Geographic Article
It's the new Scylla and Charybdis, but the same old song and dance.
Just so long as it is not the new Scalia and Alito

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 36 (352713)
09-27-2006 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Hongi
09-27-2006 2:14 AM


Welcome to the fray Hongi.
Is the new specimen conclusive evidence for a ground-inhabiting Archaeopteryx?
Short answer: no.
Longer answer: No, as (1) there are no birds incapable of ground inhabitation, although some (loons, seabirds) are ill-adapted for getting around on the land, but some are also only inhabitants of the ground, and (2) what this is more evidence of, is that a dinosaurian trait was retained in spite of what habitat the critter preferred, and the bird perching feature had not evolved yet.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Hongi, posted 09-27-2006 2:14 AM Hongi has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 36 (352726)
09-27-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2006 8:20 PM


and a marsupial glider?
not just squirrels but sugar gliders as well -- another "kind" that developed flight.
http://www.katiedid.net/differencesgandsfspage.html
they have a thumb that flying squirrels lack, but that lack has not impeded the ability of squirrels to climb, nest and perch in trees.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 36 (352770)
09-28-2006 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hongi
09-28-2006 6:43 AM


... evidence that Archaeopteryx lived in trees at all?
I believe the evidence is more that Archy was semi-aquatic, a different feather of a horse altogether.
The reason there is still a debate on ground-up vs tree-down is that there is still no convincing evidence one way or the other.
Personally I think ground-up is more likely.
First, there is good evidence of the benefit of undeveloped wings in young grouse to be able to "run" up tree trunks using the non-flight capable wings to generate enough thrust to get a grip on the tree.
http://findarticles.com/...s/mi_m1134/is_10_112/ai_111736241
Second, there would be more selection pressure to actually take off to avoid predation.
Third, non-flight wings would also be useful for (a) changing direction rapidly and (b) appearing bigger than you really are and (c) mating displays.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hongi, posted 09-28-2006 6:43 AM Hongi has not replied

  
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