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Author
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Topic: Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 1 of 352 (505526)
04-13-2009 7:53 AM
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I am calling out Peg on a claim she has made.
PEG writes:
As soon as anyone creates their own book, especially one that contradicts the bible, it has to be questioned.
Peg is under the impression that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. I have asked her to provide 3 examples of the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible. She has only responded so far with quotes from Joseph Smith, and a non-referenced summary of the LDS Church Belief. I will touch on the quotes from Joseph Smith:
PEG writes:
Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body." JosephF. Smith, president from 1901 to 1918 the Bible teaches that the parents of all humans was Adam & Eve, fleshly humans, not spirits.
This can be easily be argued as Adam and Eve being the parents of the Human Body, not spirit. A good question would be, where does the Human Spirit come from? Does the Bible have any accounts of man existing before this mortal existence?
LDS Website writes:
2. Jeremiah had a premortal existence. Through revelation the prophet Jeremiah learned something about the preexistence of his own soul. The Lord spoke to him and said, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5.) Since, as this passage states, the Lord knew Jeremiah before he was born and sanctified Jeremiah before he was born and ordained Jeremiah before he was born, it must be clear that Jeremiah was in existence before his mortal birth. 3. Job had a premortal existence. On one occasion the Lord asked the prophet Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4, 7.) Now although the Lord didn’t tell Job where he was before the foundations of the earth were laid, the very question implies that Job was in existence somewhere”and not only Job but “all the sons of God.” And when we recall that the Bible teaches that we are the sons of God (“the offspring of God” is the way the apostle Paul phrases it in Acts 17:29), we can’t help but conclude that we were in existence with Job (and Jeremiah and the Lord Jesus Christ) before the earth was created. 4. Jesus made no attempt to correct his apostles when they expressed a belief in man’s premortal existence. This conclusion is based on an incident narrated in the ninth chapter of John. In reference to a blind man the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.) Note that their question was not simply whether the man’s parents had sinned before he was born but whether the man himself had sinned before he was born. Their query plainly shows that they believed that the man had been both alive and capable of sinning before he was born.
PEG writes:
2. "God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." Joseph Smith the Bible teaches that The Almighty God is a spirit person and nowhere does it say that God was once a man.
The Bible never explicitly states the nature or history of Elohim (which is a plurality as the Council of El) other than it being the creator. This is why there is a plural "us" in the creation, and interaction between Adam, Eve, and God. It is after the expulsion that YHWH comes into the picture. Thus, you cannot contradict information that does not exist.
PEG writes:
Mormon Theology states that all humankind existed as spirit beings in heaven before coming to earth. The purpose of their coming to earth is so that they can be tested and, if successful, be exalted, that they may eventually become gods themselves with worlds of their own." The bible teaches that man was made from the dust of the earth. He did not exist until God made him.
Again, you are discussing the physical creation of man. This does not prohibit the increase in "knowledge" on a pre-existing spirit. The logical following is, that which is created on earth, must end... therefor the spirit must have previously existed. These points I have made were merely a rebuttal. The original topic still stands of naming contradictions that exist between the BoM and the Bible. I am looking forward to your responses.
Suggested forum: 'Faith and Belief' Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Replace "BoM" with "Book of Mormon" in topic title.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by Rahvin, posted 04-13-2009 2:09 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 4 by kuresu, posted 04-13-2009 2:59 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 5 by Peg, posted 04-13-2009 8:47 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 12 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 2:36 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 54 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 10:31 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 55 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 10:53 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 56 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 11:15 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 11:50 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 58 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 12:09 AM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 176 by polla1, posted 11-10-2009 11:09 AM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 6 of 352 (505605)
04-13-2009 10:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
04-13-2009 8:47 PM
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Peg, Peg, Peg
Peg, It seems you have great difficulty in staying on topic. Please answer the challenge.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Peg, posted 04-13-2009 8:47 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 19 of 352 (521258)
08-26-2009 4:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by ochaye
08-26-2009 4:26 PM
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The anwer to your question is the same as for this one: Why don't all Christians just make due with genesis?
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:26 PM | | ochaye has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:43 PM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 24 of 352 (521303)
08-26-2009 9:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by ochaye
08-26-2009 4:43 PM
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ochaye writes:
What do Christians have to do with anything?
FACEPALM Last time I checked, LDS Members are Christians. Seeing as the Bible is a Christian compilation of Scripture, this would be a discussion on Christianity. More especially, a sub section of it known as the LDS Church.
ochaye writes:
Can Mormons answer a plain question about their own faith
It's not whether your question is plain, or complex. It is whether your question is relevant, or meaningful. Seeing as your question can be applied to The Book of Exodus - in that it is an additional book following Genesis, that does not contradict it - I would say that your question is meaningless to the topic. A Better Example would be to quote your own last line:
ochaye writes:
If the BoM does not contradict any Bible teaching, why do Mormons not just make do with the Bible?
and rephrase it within your own rules: If the [Book of] Exodus does not contradict any Genesis teaching, why do Christians not just make do with the [Book of] Genesis?
ochaye writes:
What is so hard about this?
Actually, you are the only person that can answer that question. So, what is so hard about critical thinking, because it seems to come easily to me, and many others on this forum. Edited by Michamus, : qs was not bracketed
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:43 PM | | ochaye has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 6:02 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 48 of 352 (521524)
08-27-2009 5:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by ochaye
08-27-2009 4:41 PM
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ochaye writes:
Ok. So, the Messiah, who was promised and prophesied in the OT, fulfilled the indication of the OT. There being no similar indications in the NT, the expectation is reasonably, on the assumption that God would use the same 'methodology' for further revelation, that there will be no further event to be expected that will necessitate recording of other revelation. If the divine rationale is that future events are to be pre-indicated, then one would expect nothing more of this nature.
Sure. Why not? Here's the indication that prophecy (scripture) is not going to stop being revealed. I also enjoy that it is stated to test what new scripture says.
quote:
1 Thess. 5
19-21 Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good
ochaye writes:
When Jesus came, he came into a context, one that was revealed for over a thousand years, so that he was unmistakably identified
This is a farce. The only reason we worship Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah -as opposed to the dozens, if not hundreds of other people who claimed to be the "Messiah" and were purported to have performed similar miracles, and obligations- is because the Roman Empire formally adopted the brand of Christianity created with the Council of Nicaea. There was (and still isn't) any clear indication that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ.
ochaye writes:
And yet we are now to use our wits as best we can, without divine assistance?
No, we aren't to use our wits alone. Thessalonians clearly states that the spirit, and new prophecy is not to be shunned, but tested and gleaned for what is good.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:41 PM | | ochaye has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 5:41 PM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 53 of 352 (521550)
08-27-2009 8:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by ochaye
08-27-2009 5:41 PM
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ochaye writes:
But we don't know who has the Spirit. The Spirit must act upon what has already been revealed.
Nevermind, I am done discussing this topic with an individual unwilling to think above the level of a 5 year old.
Michamus writes:
Thessalonians clearly states that the spirit, and new prophecy is not to be shunned, but tested and gleaned for what is good.
Besides, this discussion is horribly off topic from whether the BoM contradicts the Bible. EOD
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 5:41 PM | | ochaye has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by ochaye, posted 08-28-2009 6:26 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 71 of 352 (521660)
08-28-2009 12:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 54 by kbertsche
08-27-2009 10:31 PM
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The non-Contradiction 1: Start of Church
kbertsche writes:
According to the Bible, the Christian Church began at the Feast of Pentecost, 50 days after Christs' crucifixion, as detailed in Acts 2. Note that in Mt 16:18, Jesus said that His Church was still future
What happened with Alma in the Book of Mormon is no different than what John the Baptist did. Alma was clearly establishing the Church of God/Christ in preparation for the coming messiah.
quote:
Mosiah 18
15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.
16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 10:31 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 73 of 352 (521665)
08-28-2009 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by kbertsche
08-27-2009 10:53 PM
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The non-Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
kbertsche writes:
According to the Bible, Jesus was born in Bethlehem
Which was within the Land of Jerusalem
quote:
Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, 3d ed. 489 El Amarna letter #287 reports:
a town of the land of Jerusalem, Bit-Lahmi [Bethlehem] by name, a town belonging to the king, has gone over to the side of the people of Keilah.
Edited by Michamus, : No reason given.
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 10:53 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:03 PM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 74 of 352 (521666)
08-28-2009 12:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by ochaye
08-28-2009 12:23 PM
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Re: The non-Contradiction 1: Start of Church
I have already stated I am done responding to your off-topic statements. When you have something relevant to the topic to discuss, I will be happy to respond. Have a nice day.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by ochaye, posted 08-28-2009 12:23 PM | | ochaye has not replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 75 of 352 (521667)
08-28-2009 12:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by kbertsche
08-27-2009 11:50 PM
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The non-Contradiction 4: Length of Darkness
kbertsche writes:
The Bible says that there was darkness for three hours at the time of Jesus' crucifixion: But the Book of Mormon says that this darkness extended for three days:
You do realize Helaman and Nephi are referring to their own land, and not the middle east... right? Edited by Michamus, : No reason given.
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 11:50 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:37 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 76 of 352 (521669)
08-28-2009 12:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 12:09 AM
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non-Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
kbertsche writes: The Bible says that we are saved by God's grace, through faith alone, not due to any works, achievements, or efforts on our part:
This is too easy.
quote:
James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, Faith without works is dead?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 12:09 AM | | kbertsche has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:00 PM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 80 of 352 (521752)
08-28-2009 9:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 1:03 PM
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Re: The non-Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
Refer to my source.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:03 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:33 AM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 81 of 352 (521755)
08-28-2009 9:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 1:00 PM
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Re: non-Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
kbertsche writes:
Good works are a result of salvation, not a means of it.
Spoken like a true Lutheran. If this is true, then why is faith "dead" without works? Seems to me that the author is saying to believe alone will not save you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:00 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:15 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 82 of 352 (521758)
08-28-2009 9:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by kbertsche
08-28-2009 12:55 PM
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Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
Sorry, I seem to have skipped Message 56. My apologies.
kbertsche writes:
Jacob himself and Joseph (one of Jacob's sons and a brother of Levi) were priests
Seems you have your names confused. Jacob and Joseph were Nephi's younger brothers, and not the Jacob and Joseph of the OT.
quote:
2 Nephi 5
6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren...
Mosiah 29:42 and Alma 4:20 infer that Lehi, and his lineage were operating under the high priesthood, or Melchizedek Priesthood, which is not bound by lineage, but conferred by god. Edited by Michamus, : Inserted last snippet for follow through
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 12:55 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 89 of 352 (521810)
08-29-2009 10:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 84 by kbertsche
08-29-2009 12:33 AM
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Re: Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
kbertsche writes:
Are there Book of Mormon uses of the phrase "land of Jerusalem,"
What's kind of funny is the very verse in Alma that you quoted makes the distinction that they are referring to Jerusalem as a land, rather than City.
quote:
Alma 7
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers
If you think that is a little iffy, here are some other BoM references:
quote:
1 Nephi 3
9 And I, Nephi, and my brethren took our journey in the wilderness, with our tents, to go up to the land of Jerusalem.
Not only that, but in the very same book (Alma) it is made clear the distinction between "the land", and "the city".
quote:
Alma 14
23 that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah Alma 8
6 So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days’ journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah
So the distinction between "land of", and "city of" is quite clear throughout the BoM.
kbertsche writes:
Are there any biblical uses of the phrase "land of Jerusalem," or is this phrase restricted to the El Amarna letters?
I am not able to find any biblical references in which "land of Jerusalem" is used. The usage is common amongst modern Biblical scholars though, in light of more recently discovered texts. I am not entirely sure on the credibility of the site, but the distinction between the land of, and city of is made by this Scholar:
Bible-History.com - The "Land of Jerusalem" Also Robert Eisenmann and Michael Wise, in The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered (1993), discuss one document that they have provisionally named "Pseudo-Jeremiah" (scroll 4Q385). The beginning of the damaged text reads as follows:
quote:
...Jeremiah the Prophet before the Lord
[...w]ho were taken captive from the land of Jerusalem [Eretz Yerushalayim, column 1, line 2] (p. 58).
In their discussion of this text, Eisenmann and Wise elaborate on the significance of the phrase "land of Jerusalem," which they see as an equivalent for Judah (Yehud):
quote:
"Another interesting reference is to the 'land of Jerusalem' in Line 2 of Fragment 1. This greatly enhances the sense of historicity of the whole, since Judah or 'Yehud' (the name of the area on coins from the Persian period) by this time consisted of little more than Jerusalem and its immediate environs." (p. 57)
What is interesting is this term was not known to Biblical scholars prior to the more recent discovery of these ancient texts. With that in mind, it would make it near impossible for Joseph Smith to have used the phrase in proper context.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:33 AM | | kbertsche has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 2:40 PM | | Michamus has not replied |
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