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Author
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Topic: The Barbarity of Christianity (as compared to Islam)
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 111 of 299 (334883)
07-24-2006 1:58 PM
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this is the post jar now questions
No, but my point jar is you say you are a Christian but then claim Christianity is a force for evil. Are you then a force for evil? How do you know your ideas of Christ-likeness are correct? And if you are asserting that Christ's real teachings are not a force for evil in the world, then shouldn't you qualify your claims that Christianity is the greatest force of evil in the world, and say that false Christianity is? The way you put it, being a Christian means that you are part of a great, evil force, and Jesus is not part of Christianity because Christianity is evil and unChristlike, right? Jar responded with:
Not at all. Of course, he was not a Christian, but rather a nice Jewish boy. The Map is not the Territory randman. The question is whether or not Christianity as it has been practiced down through the ages is at all Christ-like. And sadly, history and compemporary life, say that the answer is a resounding "No!" There is no sense that he is saying, no randman, you misunderstand my point...I am not saying Christianity is evil. In fact, he reiterates the opposite, and now has the gall to say I am misrepresenting him. To all that question my comments here, just what should a reasonable person think jar's argument is? I think it's clear his argument is that Christianity is evil or as he suggests the greatest force of violence and oppression in human history. I am simply asking questions to challenge him on how he knows what true Christianity or Christ-likeness is, if Christianity is so evil, and we cannot trust the gospels, etc, etc,....
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 113 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 2:02 PM | | randman has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 112 of 299 (334884)
07-24-2006 1:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 110 by iano
07-24-2006 1:57 PM
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Re: what the heck?
Iano, that's about it, isn't it? We'll see if fairness rules here and jar is suspended or not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by iano, posted 07-24-2006 1:57 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by iano, posted 07-24-2006 2:07 PM | | randman has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 115 of 299 (334891)
07-24-2006 2:14 PM
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jar is clear here on another thread
Thank GOD Jesus was not a Christian.
message 5 http:// EvC Forum: Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him) --> EvC Forum: Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him) I really don't have time to delve into all of jar's past comments, which are clear regardless, in that he thinks Christianity is a great or at times even the greatest force of oppression on earth. My point in this quote though is just to point out that jar does indeed think of Jesus as not Christian, and that Christianity needs to be more Christ-like. I agree that Christianity should Christ-like except the difference is I have a reason besides my own subjective experience for arguing what is Christ-like and that reason is that I believe the gospels are valid, and moreover, point out that where reading the gospels is prevalent, we see Christians be more Christ-like in exchewing persecutions. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 116 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 2:38 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 117 of 299 (334914)
07-24-2006 3:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
07-24-2006 2:38 PM
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Re: jar is clear here on another thread
I will be happy to compare the barbarity of Christianity and Islam at any time. But there has never been a more intolerant, barbaric movement on earth than Christianity. Really?
The rest of your post relating to Islamic practices are pointless and off topic anyway. This thread is not about whether or not some other religion sucks, it's about Christianity, and historically, Christianity has been about the most violent, intolerant force on earth. I guess that means he is happy if Islam is off-topic, and it's all about "the most violent, intolerant force on earth", but that doesn't mean jar has ever called Christianity evil...  Edit to add this gem from jar in admin mode:
This is not a topic about Islam, but rather about the barbarity of Christianity.
Try to stay on topic. Ringo, you are correct though that the OP includes Islam, and so the thread really should be about comparing Islam and Christianity, but jar and adminjar decided to see if differently.....btw, must be empowering to decide the rules in your favor as you participate in debate and forget the OP! Edited by randman, : No reason given. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 2:38 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 123 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 3:55 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 118 of 299 (334917)
07-24-2006 3:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by jar
02-10-2006 1:42 PM
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Re: setting the record straight
Btw, the troubles in Ireland are not primarily religiously motivated. For the Orangemen, religion has been a motivation going back a long ways, but it began as largely political. For the IRA, religion has nothing to do with it at all, for the most part.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 1:42 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 3:47 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 120 of 299 (334923)
07-24-2006 3:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by jar
07-24-2006 3:47 PM
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already did...here it is again
I suppose you can get away with suggesting others are lying. I am not surprised, but to answer you jar. You said:
Christianity has been about the most violent, intolerant force on earth. You make it plain that Christianity, in your opinion, is still oppresive today, right? You have said this on other threads, right? You claimed Christianity cannot be split up into subgroups, right? What's your beef? It IS YOUR CLAIM that Christianity is evil, not mine. There is no misrepresentation of you here.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 3:47 PM | | jar has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 124 of 299 (334929)
07-24-2006 4:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
07-24-2006 3:55 PM
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Re: English 101
But the topic here, if you'd care to address it at all, is comparing Christianity with Islam.What acts have Muslims done that Christians have never done?
Alas, that was decided to be off-topic by jar and adminjar. I agree it's what the OP is about, imo, but I am not a mod. Consider, btw, another comment from jar:
As much as I hate it, Hitler and his other Nazis were very much True Christians and all that they did, all the killing of Jews, the weak, Poles, Gypses and the metally ill, the did in the name of Christianity. http:// EvC Forum: Darwin and responsibilty --> EvC Forum: Darwin and responsibilty I don't know for sure if jar considers such killing "evil" or not, I suppose, but I think the term "evil" was most likely apt. I am willing to drop that word, however, upon jar clearing up what his stance is, whether he means being violent and oppressive is evil or not. I have no intention on misrepresenting him in any way. Personally, I don't think of Christianity as some monolithic belief system, and wouldn't consider the religion of Hitler Christian in any form whatsoever, but that's not jar's stance. Jar definitely thinks a good portion of Christianity is evil, more so than Hitler, as shown by the following comment.
Hitler was Evil, but as you pointed out in the OP, it was a very normal human evil, even if on a grand scale. It was not a sign of Satan's influence. Just pure meanness. On the other hand, Ron Wyatt, Ken Hovind, Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson and such are IMHO definite signs of the influence and existence of Satan. The EVIL here is that Satan gets people to ignore GOD's word, to pervert the Bible, to hate others and inflame those very human insticts for doing evil. I do not see anyway you can account for the perversions of people like the above without the direct influence of Satan. http:// EvC Forum: Jesus and evil --> EvC Forum: Jesus and evil Edited by randman, : No reason given. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 123 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 3:55 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 4:38 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 125 of 299 (334931)
07-24-2006 4:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 122 by Brian
07-24-2006 3:54 PM
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Re: Tim McVeigh?
I don't think he considered himself a Christian, and most likely was not. In the accounts I read, he was not a religious person.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by Brian, posted 07-24-2006 3:54 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 126 of 299 (334937)
07-24-2006 4:29 PM
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btw, jar uses the term evil on this thread
But the Christian Church, particularly the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists today are the oppressors, oppressing those they consider different, for examples the homosexuals that want basic human rights. As a Christian, I have a duty to speak out when my Church, the Christian Faith is being used to harm others. Evil in the name of GOD is still evil and it is still the act of Christians.
I have a hard time seeing what the fuss is about on jar's objections to my use of evil to describe the way he feels about Christianity, or at least a part of it (but he says it can't be subdivided so it seems he would mean the whole lot?). Jar didn't seem to mind the term evil being used earlier on the thread by me to describe his position on "Christianity" and he uses the same term here to describe the acts within Christianity he so despises. Now, is he saying he doesn't think these acts are "evil" or something else, or just wanting to get me to spend time quoting him? Also, he states:
Christians killing in the name of God has been the norm for Christianity.
But it has not been the norm. The first 350 years, it was not part of Christianity for the most part, and hasn't really been for the past 450-500 years, and has never been a part of many Christian churches and sects, and the use of violence is clearly rooted in the Roman Empire's intrusion into the Christian faith. The simple fact is that using Papal persecutions to smear all of Christianity, and even more so Adolph Hitler, is wrong. The faith of Christians today and of most of the non-papal(or recently Roman Catholic)Christians has not been marked with religious violence towards other Christians. Edited by randman, : No reason given. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 128 of 299 (334947)
07-24-2006 4:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
07-24-2006 4:38 PM
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Is that an acceptable standard?
The question implies a false assumption, namely that if Christians have not refrained from ever committing the same acts of barbarity as Muslims, then somehow they are the same. 1. The question ignores scope. 2. The question ignores motive. If the act is not religiously motivated, then does it belong in the discussion? 3. The question fails to really detail what is a Christian or Muslim. Obviously, a great many people could be called Christian, even atheists, based on their origin of birth or their nominal lip service for political purposes. The issue, imo, should be are the real believers of what Islam is and what Christ taught motivated by those teaching to barbarity. I think a good argument can be made that true Islam does teach barbarism, and that Jesus' teachings do not. But is this back on-topic or not?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 4:38 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 5:06 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 131 of 299 (334954)
07-24-2006 4:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 129 by jar
07-24-2006 4:51 PM
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so jar, is Islam part of the OP or not?
You responded earlier:
This is not a topic about Islam, but rather about the barbarity of Christianity.
Try to stay on topic. It was a comment you made as an admin to the following post by inkorrekt:
The prophet Muhammed went on a Jihad agsint the Jews who disapproved him and killed 600 of them. This continued. Middle east was conquered through blood shed. According the Islamic Law, Sharia, if the muslims build their temple in any city, that city belongs to them. Look what they have done. They have built the mosques in Bethlehem, NAzareth and even Jerusalem and they are now claiming these cities. In the USA, they have built 1400 mosques. It did not stop here. They did this to the Hinduus. The Sharia law cost the lives of nearly 3 million Hindues and muslims. This has extended to Indonesia. REcently, the world is totally blind to the innocent murder of Christians in Sudan. Nearly 300, 000 of them have been murdered. Yes, now you can blame the Christians for the Holy war, Crusades. Of course, those who carried this out did in the name of Christianity and they were not even christians. Hitler is also described as a Christian. If he were a Christian, why would he execute Bon hoefer, a Christian minister who opposed Hitler? Hitler was an atheist and he strongly believed in Evolution ( Aryans were the Superior race). He also hated Christians and Jews. Did you know that while the Muslims and Hindus were killing each other, it was the christians who stood by the Muslims, protected them and helped them with medical aid and food. do you know who is Mother Theresa? Why did she do what she did? Jim Elliott was a missionary who was killed by the Alka Indians. MAny years later, his wife had a burden for these peopel and went and ministered to them. Jesus Christ was illegally charged and convicted when he committed no crime. He died for you and me. He even forgave his enemies. On the other hand,KOran ( Surah 33 and 35) states that all muslims must hate Jews and Christians and even execute them. If a muslim executes anon muslim, he will go to paradise where 76 virgins will be waiting for him. In the worls today, the muslims are carrying out the commands of their prophet by killing Christians. On the other hand, Chrisitans have not killed anyone in the name of religion recently. Let me add that he is wrong on the numbers that Islamacists have killed in the Sudan, and that a better estimate is 2 million. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 4:51 PM | | jar has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 132 of 299 (334956)
07-24-2006 5:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
07-24-2006 4:57 PM
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Re: misrepresenting me again randman
Well, maybew the reader can see his tactics exposed regardless? Thanks for your comment. I think, moreover, that perhaps in this case, jar's actions will backfire even among the mods. He calls fundamentalist Christianity evil. He calls Christianity as a whole the greatest force of oppression on earth. There is no misrepresentation of him here by me or others. I suspect everyone sees that. I'd like to see, however, more recognition of the true history of Christianity. The persecutors were the aberration, not the legit followers of the man, Christ Jesus. All religion can be used for evil, and is used for evil, but I think it's important to distinguish what Jesus did and taught from the way some misuse the Christian label. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by Faith, posted 07-24-2006 4:57 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 134 of 299 (334961)
07-24-2006 5:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
07-24-2006 5:06 PM
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Re: Is that an acceptable standard?
If Christians have committed the same acts as Muslims, then they are the same. People are human beings. In that sense, the people are the same. The religions, however, are different.
Scope is irrelevant. One murder is no less barbaric than mass-murder. No. Mass murder is more barbaric than a single murder.
Motive is irrelevant. One motive for murder is as barbaric as the next. So a Christian murders for some non-religious reason, as David did out of lust for Bathsheba, and a Muslim kills in order to gain entrance into heaven, and you don't see the difference? Are we talking about people or religion here?
It is not possible to determine the exact motivation for acts committed far in the past. Only the acts themselves are relevant to this discussion. Who says? Courts determine motive "beyond a reasonable doubt" all the time.
You can't use the No-True-Christian fallacy or the No-True-Muslim fallacy to weasel out of the discussion. You seem to want to say that anybody who commits barbaric acts is No-True-Christian and anybody who doesn't commit barbaric acts is No-True-Muslim. LOL. No, it is Christians that universally condemn barbarism in the name of religion, and Muslims themselves that argue that Muslims that deny barbaric acts are acceptable are not true Muslims. Ringo, your logic is so impeached as further response to the same question is unnecessary. Let me put it this way. One could argue that scientists are the most barbaric people on earth based on some act of barbarism by a scientist, and based on your argument, unless all scientists have been innocent of the same atrocities as others, they are just as barbaric, right? Do you have some valid reason to ignore the tenets of the religions themselves and the motivation of acts of barbarism? Edited by randman, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 5:06 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 135 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 5:44 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 136 of 299 (334969)
07-24-2006 5:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
07-24-2006 5:44 PM
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Re: Is that an acceptable standard?
The only way to do that is to look at individual acts of barbarism by individual members of both religions.
So what group of human beings does not have someone that has committed barbaric acts? I suspect there are kindergarter teachers somewhere guilty of murder. Do we then argue that kindergarter teaching engenders barbarism? No, you have to look at the teachings and motivations themselves along with the specific acts. The simple fact is that Islamic radicals are killing and oppressing millions in Islamic areas and do so in the name of their religion without any corresponding parallel among Christians or Christianity today. The simple fact is Jesus never implored his followers to persecute unbelievers, but Mohammed did and so does mainstream Islam.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by ringo, posted 07-24-2006 5:44 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 137 by ringo, posted 07-25-2006 12:48 AM | | randman has not replied | | | Message 138 by ikabod, posted 07-25-2006 4:10 AM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 139 of 299 (335136)
07-25-2006 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 138 by ikabod
07-25-2006 4:10 AM
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Re: Is that an acceptable standard?
ikabod, there was more than a small tax to be a non-Muslim. Under most of these lands, the people were Christians or Jews, but over the centuries, the Muslim conquerers imposes a system of discrimination that encouraged others to become Muslim but strictly persecuted any Muslim from becoming non-Muslim in a violent manner. So you have a curious situation in places like Egypt where the Coptics are severely persecuted, but you may have some prominent Coptics rise up to prominence nevertheless. It's sort of like how you had a few black slave-owners in the South except the prominent Coptics are not engaging in the oppression. The fact some can find a way to prosper does not change the oppressive systematic discrimination and persecution that was instituted under Muslim rule. That's why areas that were predominantly Christian are predominantly Muslim now, and only a pockets of Christians in these areas. Of course, some Muslim states like Saudi Arabia do not permit open Christianity at all, and you cannot even take a Bible in there without risking arrest.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by ikabod, posted 07-25-2006 4:10 AM | | ikabod has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 140 by Isaac, posted 07-25-2006 1:39 PM | | randman has replied |
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