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Author Topic:   A case for Natural Design
sleikind
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 70 (230163)
08-05-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by randman
08-04-2005 11:10 PM


Re: You overrate the role of physics
In QM, the particle exists as a probability to appear in a certain manner, and then the definite appearance follows subsequently.
I am no Physicist, but I always thought that that the probabilistic nature of QM results from measurement. I did not think it implies that wavefunctions of particles are intrinsically probabilistic or random. Therefore, I wonder if particles really EXIST as probabilities? My impression is that the probability part of this stems from our "interaction" with wavefunctions when we measure them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by randman, posted 08-04-2005 11:10 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 12:34 PM sleikind has replied

  
sleikind
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 70 (230213)
08-05-2005 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by randman
08-05-2005 12:34 PM


Re: You overrate the role of physics
That's a common misconception since for a long time no one had devised a way to tell if it was the intrusion of measurement or something else, but even then the probabilistic aspect was considered real for a variety of reasons. What was in dispute was whether the act of measuring, or the fact something could be measured, caused the collapse of the wave function. The reality of wave/particle duality, or really potential for wave or particle, but existing as a potential was not disputed.
I am not sure that this is a misconception. My impression is that many Physicists adhere to this view. As of 1997, the Copehagen Interpretation, which was formulated by Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg, was still probably adhered to be many if not most Physicists according to a poll. This poll was made five years after the Scientific American article that you cited:
Shortened link. Use Peek to see how it was done.
Regarding the wave/partical duality and measurement, I found Erwin Schroedinger's "Cat in a Box" thought experiment to be very interesting:
And again. Plese use this format so that long links don't expand the message
Part of the problem that I am having with this subject is that I don't really understand the topic because I don't understand most of the Physics and Math. When people describe QM using words such as "measurement" and "wavefunction", these have very specific meanings in this context that I cannot truly understand because I don't know the Physics. Therefore, I think I am going to bail out of this discussion so I don't make more of a fool of myself then I already have!
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 08-05-2005 01:01 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 12:34 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 1:56 PM sleikind has replied

  
sleikind
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 70 (230261)
08-05-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by randman
08-05-2005 1:56 PM


Re: You overrate the role of physics
The Copenhagen intepretation supports the probabilistic view of QM. Maybe you didn't realize that.
Actually, I had always been under the impression that every interpretation of QM takes a probabilistic view. My point in bringing up the Copenhagen interpretation is that it suggests that the probabilistic nature of QM stems from "measurement". In a previous post you said this was a "misconception" and you cited a 1992 Scientific American article as evidence that Physicists no longer subscribe to this idea. However, based on a poll that was taken 5 years after your Scientific American article, it seems that many if not most QM physicists still accepted the Copenhagen Interpretation as of that date.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 1:56 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 3:46 PM sleikind has replied

  
sleikind
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 70 (230281)
08-05-2005 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by randman
08-05-2005 3:46 PM


Re: You overrate the role of physics
So what we see is no one disputes the probabilistic nature, in the sense that a wave function exists.
The existence of a wave function does not necessarily imply what you call a "probabilistic nature".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 3:46 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by randman, posted 08-05-2005 5:48 PM sleikind has not replied

  
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