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Author Topic:   The Big Bang and the visible past.
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 9 of 89 (582083)
09-19-2010 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Yrreg
09-19-2010 5:46 PM


Re: A purely scientific background is not the whole picture of existence.
Yrreg writes:
At this point scientists who are atheists have censored their intelligence to not go further.
Of course not.
The science only takes you so far. But you are not prevented from going beyond that, so there is no censorship. It's just that it is no longer science. It is speculation.
Oh, and some scientists do speculate about such things. But they understand that it is speculation.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 40 of 89 (582947)
09-24-2010 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Buzsaw
09-24-2010 12:04 AM


Re: Incomprehension
Buzsaw writes:
I maintain my Message 24
Here's what you are missing: Whereas you consider the above, science you reject/miss that the eternal intelligent designer model of the universe should also be considered a possible/viable/debatable science model.
The terms "eternal", "intelligent" and "designer" are human concepts that are based on our experience in time-space. So, based on the standard BB model, "eternal" could only mean "since the big bang" and "intelligent designer" could only refer to some entity in the physical universe.
Presumably that is not what you intended. Thus cavediver was asking for an explanation of what you really did intend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 12:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 12:49 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 43 of 89 (582952)
09-24-2010 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
09-24-2010 12:49 AM


Re: Comprehending terms.
Buzsaw writes:
I beg to differ. The BB does not define terms like eternal, designer and intelligent just because the BB is presumed to be temporal.
The standard model is that BB creates time. So "time" does not apply to anything other than what follows BB. I'm not sure what you intended by "the BB is presumed to be temporal" but that is not anything that I would presume.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 12:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

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 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 1:45 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 89 (582968)
09-24-2010 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
09-24-2010 1:45 AM


Re: Comprehending terms.
Buzsaw writes:
I understand that, but the terms which Cavediver called for the meaning of were eternal, intelligent and designer. Scientifically or otherwise, the BB does not define any of these, whether or not they are used in conjunction with the topic of BB or whether they are used in conjunction with another scientific topic.
The BB defines time. And the usual meaning of "eternal" depends on time. So, again, what does "eternal" mean such that it does not involve time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 1:45 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 9:13 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 89 (583018)
09-24-2010 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Huntard
09-24-2010 9:49 AM


Re: Redefining Definition
Huntard writes:
Wait... This means I can make the bible say literally anything I want! Neat!
I think you now understand fundamentalist Christianity.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 51 of 89 (583021)
09-24-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
09-24-2010 9:13 AM


Re: Redefining Definition
Buzsaw writes:
My understanding of the word definition is that things being defined do not determine the definition of things pertaining to the thing being defined so as to accomodate POVs of BB groups. The BB allegedly defines itself so as for it's proponents to change the meaning of terms like eternity, intelligence and design, so as to absolve it's proponents of any need to explain the mysterious aspects of it.
That seems to have a high gibberish content.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 9:13 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 1:36 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 89 (583088)
09-24-2010 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
09-24-2010 1:36 PM


Re: Redefining Definition
nwr writes:
That seems to have a high gibberish content.
Buzsaw writes:
Please reread carefully and get back to me regarding what you are unable to comprehend.
I have reread. It is still gibberish.
It seems to say that words get their meaning by magic, and that therefore you are exempt from defining your terms since magic has already handled that.
It is nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 1:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 09-24-2010 7:31 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 89 (583145)
09-24-2010 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Buzsaw
09-24-2010 7:31 PM


Re: Redefining Definition
Buzsaw writes:
So long as they/you redefine eternity to accomodate a temporal universe, yes it is mythical magic.
It is not a matter of redefining. Our ordinary concepts (time, intelligent, design) arise from our experience with what is in our world. They could not refer to things outside our world, except in a metaphorical sense. And if you are using a metaphorical sense of those words, then it is up to you to explain what you mean.
As for "eternal" - there is nothing in our world that is eternal, as far as I can tell. Human use of "eternal" seems to usually be with respect to what we imagine, rather than what is. Since there is nothing that exists where we can compare usage of the word, people don't all have the same meanings.
Buzsaw writes:
You/they would, I assume, define intelligent design as something that emerged void of intelligent design, naturally from premordial non-living soup.
The only clear examples I have of intelligent design are examples of human design. And even when used with humans, the meaning of "intelligent" is far from clear and is much argued over.
Buzsaw writes:
Bottom line. Their's/yours implicates the magic whereas mine is logical and better explains the thermodynamic laws, real life observed, design and intelligence, etc without the need to redefine these word terms.
If used with the ordinary meaning of those words, then what you have just written is nonsensical. If you have a different meaning where it makes sense, then it us up to you to provide that different meaning.

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