Design evidence # 177: male & female

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen. 1:26-27)That quote from the bible is exactly what we see in our world, man who has dominion over the animals, and male and female sex (humans and animals).How it is believed that ToE could ever produce male and female and so perfectly and consistently, is a question I would like answered.p.s. what happened to my other topic "taste buds" ?? it disappeared...I noticed one of TC's topics disappeared too...hmmm------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

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Originally posted by David unfamous:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Who exactly is the "us" in this passage?

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S: The "us" is the Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

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and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
What would man want with most creatures on this earth apart from the odd edible ones? Never understood that line.

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S: It's just saying that we are NOT animals.

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So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
So is God male/female/shemale? What does a God eat? Does God poo? Really ... I'm being serious here.

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S: Read the bible.

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That quote from the bible is exactly what we see in our world, man who has dominion over the animals, and male and female sex (humans and animals).
That quote is a man-made explanation for what we see, not the reason for what we see. And I'd like to see you practice your dominion over a pack of lions - they'd soon show you where you fit on the food chain.

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S: Except I CAN dominate them with means they don't have.

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How it is believed that ToE could ever produce male and female and so perfectly and consistently, is a question I would like answered.
Define perfection. Explain the Seahorse.

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S: eg. man and woman, perfect fit in sex, designed for each other, designed to be together.
I'm not an expert on seahorses.

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Consistency? As in the similarity between reproductive mechanisms of humans to other primates, and all other mammals? It's questions like these that brought about the ToE in the first place. You're on the right track sonnike.

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S: Sorry, it was rejection of God that brought about ToE...you're on the wrong track.Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

First, please answer my original question and explain in detail how evolution could have produced male and female.Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

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Originally posted by SLPx:
All humans are animals, therefore, all animals are human.

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Sonnike said so, therefore, it is true!

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First of all....I didn't say that..I said humans are NOT animals...2ndly, ...are you going to keep saying that to everything I write forever and ever?? ------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"I noticed one of TC's topics disappeared too...hmmm"
--Which one?

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I don't remember the name of it, but it was around dec. 20th or so..if you go to your index, you should see a 'blank' topic which has your last message number listed but no topic...Regards,
S

Peter: "In what way are humans not animals? "
-------------------------------------------------Well, for one we have a spirit.
Secondly, we bury our dead and THINK about mortality.
Thirdly, we have creativity and imagination beyond any animal (fine art, space shuttle, etc).
We can control fire, no animal can do that.
We make and use advanced tools.
We can speak, and write, and communicate with each other in intelligent ways.
We think about our brain.
We have dominion over the animals.
We debate about things, like evolution, origins, etc.We are NOT animals. We are created in God's image.Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

AstroMike: "Sonnikke, I suggest you read Ecclesiastes 3:18-19. Its pretty much disagree with what you just said."
--------------------------------------------------First, I'm pleased that you are reading your Maker's word.
Secondly, you have to read the book in context, what he is actually saying is that without God life is meaningless and we are no different than the animals (notice this is mainstream evolutionary thinking). However, WITH God we realize that life is NOT meaningless, but rather created for a purpose, for every man, woman and child. And we are in fact, very special, set apart from the beasts.The book ends with this:
Eccl ch. 12:
v. 13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
v. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

slpx: "You can talk to a brick wall until you are blue in the face, but the brick changeth not."
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I'm glad you admit you are a brick wall. The question is, are you load-bearing or non-load bearing?Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

"And if you look further, you will find that we are essentially an oddball species of African great ape."
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So now you have us as being an ape....do all your other evo-friends agree with this too???sad sad sad...------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

here is your answer dear Holmes:ECC 3 AMP - A Time for Everything - There is a - Bible Gateway"FootnotesDoes the Bible really teach that "a man has no preeminence over a beast"? No! The Bible only records that the book of Ecclesiastes says it. Then why is this book in the Bible? Can it possibly be called inspired by God when it makes such "under the sun" pronouncements, some only partially true, others entirely false? Here is the tested answer: "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching ... reproof... correction, for instruction... in righteousness." (II Tim. 3:16 ASV.) The divine purpose in including Ecclesiastes in the Bible is obvious. It gives a startling picture of how fatal it is for even the wisest of men to substitute man's "wisdom" for God's wisdom, and to attempt to live by it. Solomon's reign began with God, gold, and glory. It ended with bafflement, brass, and bewildered acceptance of man's having "no preeminence over a beast"!--man, who was made "in the image and likeness of God" (Gen. 1:27) and "but little lower than God [or heavenly beings]"! (Ps. 8:5.) "(emphasis added)In other words, God doesn't call us beasts, only MAN does.Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

who is sonnille?

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Let me see if I can follow the theological logic here (sorry, I'm not very good at theology, being devoutly agnostic)...
1. Humans not being animals is evidence that we are the product of the Designer, not evolution.

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Correct.

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2. But the only unique evidence cited so far indicating that humans are NOT animals is the Word of Ecclesiastes that humans without God are merely animals.

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Incorrect, you must've missed some posts.
other evidence included:
- ability to control fire
- we bury our dead
- we make and use tools (not rocks like the apes)
- our creativity (art, engineering, etc)
- we think about life after death and our mortality
- we think about our brain
- we use speech and communicate many ways (spoken, written, sign language, etc)
- we have dominion over the animals (this aint no "planet of the apes")Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

Holmes, I appreciate your long dialogue. You still don't get it though. If you really did read the whole book, you would have seen that the context is that without God life is meaningless and we are like the animals. However, that is looking at it from a worldy human point of view. In the end the writer recognizes that what makes man unique and whole, is to fear God and keep His commandments.
With God in our lives, we realize who we are, children of the Most High, the Creator of the cosmos, Maker of heaven and earth. Made in HIS image (the animals are NOT).These excerpts from the full document (which I recommend you read) explain it much better.

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Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible

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So it is quite possible to "prove" all kinds of utterly false things by quoting the Bible. because in that sense the Bible is filled with error. But the Bible always points out the error which it presents and makes it clear that it is error, as in the case with this book. Because of its remarkable character Ecclesiastes is the most misused book of the Bible. This is the favorite book of atheists and agnostics. And many cults love to quote this book's erroneous viewpoints and give the impression that these are scriptural, divine words of God concerning life.

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But right away in its introduction this book is very careful to point out that what it records is not divine truth. It presents only the human view of life. You'll find that over and over, throughout the whole course of Ecclesiastes, one phrase is repeated again and again: "under the sun," "under the sun." Everything is evaluated according to appearances alone---this is man's point of view of reality and is utterly exclusive of divine revelation. As such, Ecclesiastes very accurately summarizes what man thinks.

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Ecclesiastes views God as men in general view God---as a not very vital concern of life. sort of a high-calorie dessert which you can take or leave. There is no understanding of God as a vital, living Lord, an authority in life with whom one can have a personal relationship.

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Then in chapter 3 he views life from what we might call the existential viewpoint. That is a popular term today. It is fashionable to believe in existentialism and it is, of course, thought to be something new on the stage of world ideas. But it is nothing new at all. It is as old as the thinking of man. Actually, we might call this viewpoint fatalism, because there is always a fatalistic element in existentialism.

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Now this writer says, "I tried that. I discovered that I reacted to events, that I had certain inescapable experiences in life." We read that there is:

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A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;a time to weep...(3:2-4),
...and so on. The writer sees that all these events come upon us. And he sees also that man has a desire for something deeper, for finding significance, for finding meaning in life:

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He has made everything beautiful in its time; also he has put eternity into man's mind. (verse 11)

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In other words, man can never rest with simply external explanations of things. He has to look deeper. Eternity is in his heart. And this writer says he saw all this. He saw that events of life are inescapable and are experienced by all men---but he saw that all men go to one place when it is all over. All turn to dust.

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And there is nothing better for man than to enjoy his work,
For that is his lot; who can bring him to see what will be after him? (verse 22)
He sees futility. hopelessness. What's the use?

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You see? He has proved his case hasn't he? All the way through it is the same thing. Life lived apart from God all comes out to the same thing.

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At this point comes the change in viewpoint, the recognition that life is meaningful and significant when the person of God is enthroned in it. This is Solomon's true conclusion to all of his findings, and it begins this way:

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Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth; walk in the ways of your heart and the sight of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment. (11:9)

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That doesn't mean punishment. It means examination: God will bring you into an examination of your life. But "Rejoice!" (That is Solomon's very word!) The Debater's final conclusion is thus directly opposite his previous conclusion. Six times in this account you find him playing one string on his violin, over and over again. The only thing he has to say to the man who approaches life without a genuine commitment to God, is this: "Eat. drink and be merry. for tomorrow you must die."

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There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil. (2:24)

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So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should enjoy his work, for that is his lot; who can bring him to see what will be after him. (3:22)

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What I have seen to be good and fitting is to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil with which one toils under the sun the few days of his life which God has given him, for this is his lot. (5:18)

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And I commend enjoyment, for man has no good thing under the sun but to eat, and drink, and enjoy himself, for this will go with him in his toil through the days of life which God gives him under the sun. (8:15)

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Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do. (9:7)
And yet again:

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Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answer everything. (10:19)

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Practical isn't it? And devilish. Do you see? When you hear people talking this way today, when you see worldly man thinking and acting on the basis of "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die," don't blame him. What else can he say? This is the inevitable conclusion of any approach to life that erases God from the picture. And there is nothing more descriptive of utterly blind pessimism than those words. Think of it. Eat, drink and be merry. In other words, live like an animal. This denies the glory of manliness and manhood. It reduces man to the level of the animal. It is the most hopeless statement one can ever make. "What is life? Nothing at all. Utterly insignificant. Without any meaning. Utterly futile. All that we can do, therefore, is to make the best of it. Eat, drink and be merry. Life goes out like a candle flame in the end." Utter pessimism rules in a life that is lived without God.

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Now contrast that with what the writer says in the last chapter:
Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth...(12:6)
And he goes on to describe in a beautiful, poetic passage what death is:
Before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken...(12:6)
And he teaches this final conclusion:
The end of the matter; all has been heard.
What is his final advice?
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole of man. (12:13)

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"Wait!" you protest. "You left out a word! It says, 'this is the whole duty of man.'"

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No, I didn't leave it out. The translators put it in. That word doesn't belong there. The Hebrew says, "this is the whole of man" or "this is what makes man whole," if you like. "Fear God." Now that doesn't mean that you are to be afraid of him, but to have a loving respect that obeys him.

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Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole of man.
This is what makes man whole. And the secret is to enthrone God in the days of your youth. If you want to find the secret of living so that the heart is satisfied and the spirit is enriched and fulfilled according to God's intention for you, then "Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come."

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Enthrone God in the center of your life and you will discover all that God has intended your life to be. And you will be able to rejoice all the days of your life. I can remember well when as a teenager I would wonder from time to time whether these Christian ideas that I knew were right, and would feel allured and enticed by other ways of thinking. And I felt the awful uncertainty, of not knowing which was right. What is the answer to life's questions? Looking back upon that time I have great sympathy for young people; I see their deep inner desire, just as I felt it then, not to waste their lives but to live significantly. Every young person feels that. But now, from the perspective of more than thirty years, I can say that God in grace led me to commit myself, as it says in Proverbs:

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Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. (Prov. 3:5, 6)

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Copyright (C) 1995 Discovery Publishing, a ministry of Peninsula Bible Church.

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Regards,
S[This message has been edited by sonnikke, 02-06-2003]

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Holmes: Who says I haven't read the whole book? Who said I never went to church during my childhood, went through confirmation classes, attended a private religious college and took a course specifically in Biblical literature?

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I didn't say you didn't. It's sad that (assuming you once had faith) you "lost" your faith....unless of course you are going to tell me that you are now a theistic evolutionist. Either way, you sound to me like you are still very close to not being the typical evolutionist.

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How can you ever tell someone to "go read the Bible" when in fact everyone has to read all sorts of other authors, who tell you not to believe the bible and believe them instead (and each of them with conflicting arguments)?

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You are clearly misunderstanding me, no one is telling you not to believe the bible. The bible is inspired by God, inerrant. If you read ecclesiastes and don't come away with the fact that everything is meaningless WITHOUT God, then you didn't understand it (or chose not to understand it). The commentaries were suggested to complement the reading for those who didn't understand.

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I would also like a defense from your own hand, and not another reference, why this situation couldn't be the same as what happened with the Xtian rejection of astronomy, and why rejecting a biblical passage as erroneous (especially one that concludes one should follow God's law) is better than accepting it as true and embracing the fruits of rational scientific inquiry?

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Christian rejection of astronomy??? Have you lost your mind?
Nobody's rejecting ecclesiastes, it is part of God's inspired word, to show us how futile MAN's thinking is.

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In conclusion, I recommend you do something which if you have done before, you have not done well. Read some books on philosophy and logic. How arguments are constructed properly. Read some basics of chemistry, geology, and archeology (why not throw in some biology too). Then construct logical arguments using science based evidence to advance your theory.

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Thank you for the advice.A question for you in closing, and this is actually for all evo's...I've always wanted to know what you will say that day, when you stand before Christ at the judgement seat, and you realize that you were wrong, but now it's too late. What will you say?Regards,
S.------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

Listen Holmes, if all you are interested in is putting up smokescreens, I'm not going to waste my time answering your posts.
You don't seem to want to discuss anything with me anyway.I thought for a while there that perhaps you were different, but you are a contradiction unto yourself. Out of one side of your mouth you "encourage" discussion, and out of the other side you tell me to stop posting topics.If all you want is to enjoy your own propaganda in your own little evo-world, then by all means, have fun.Regards,
S------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."