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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
jar
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Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 4 of 527 (577399)
08-28-2010 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 2:32 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
How did Evolution create the more than 1200 bones,
joints and muscles and manage to put them all in just
the right position performing the exact needed functions?
First, there is no evidence that the bones, joints and muscles are in just the right position. The evidence shows that they are in just good enough position to get by.
ICDESIGN writes:
How did Evolution manage to put the correct joint in the appropriate position?
The critter that had bones, joints and muscles in a placement that worked better got to reproduce and pass on those genes. The critter that had bones, joints and muscles in a place that didn't work died off.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 2:32 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 18 of 527 (577441)
08-28-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 7:36 PM


You've been given the answers.
First, the bones, muscles and joints are not the best or right ones, they are the ones that were just good enough to let the critter live long enough to reproduce and gradually overtime confer an advantage to one critter over another.
The evidence that they are NOT the right ones, or best ones, is that we can build mechanical devices to do the job of limbs even better than the ones living things have even when we have to retrofit our improvements into the original critter.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 7:36 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 23 of 527 (577452)
08-28-2010 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 8:48 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
Pound for pound bones are stronger than steel yet they are much lighter.
That's one of those kinda right facts that are great to misdirect attention. The most compact bones may have higher tensile strength then mild steel pound for pound, but not of most steels. BUT...even if true it is irrelevant since we can build even stronger and pound for pound lighter structures then bones.
ICDESIGN writes:
Bones are thickest where the greatest pressures occur, and the most flexible where give is needed. Unlike steel girders, they are capable of self-repair! (put that in your "we can build better" pipe and smoke it!)
Another example of an attempt at misrepresentation. Guess what, Natural selection explains that. Critters born with bones that break easily die young and don't get to pass on their genes.
And we can also design self repairing structures.
ICDESIGN writes:
Some are rounded at their ends to rotate within joints; some are grooved to conduct blood vessels and nerves;
Some are beveled, like the skull, so that the pieces fit perfectly together.
Guess what, the critters born with parts that don't fit together die before they get to pass on their genes. Ain't Natural Selection great?
ICDESIGN writes:
Some are centrally porous to contain bone marrow, where blood cells are made.
Guess what. Critters born without the holes for bone marrow either use some other system or...die before they get to pass on their genes. Ain't Natural Selection great?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 8:48 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 27 of 527 (577457)
08-28-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Bolder-dash
08-28-2010 10:04 PM


Bolder-dash writes:
One of his questions was, where are the false starts?
Everywhere. They are called extinct species. And as has been pointed out many times in this thread, the serious errors don't live long.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-28-2010 10:04 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 40 of 527 (577509)
08-29-2010 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICdesign
08-29-2010 10:14 AM


ICDESIGN writes:
A creature with a ball joint where a hinge joint is located could have survived just fine.
If so then where is the problem? If a ball joint would serve the same function as a hinged joint then it is not a matter of one being the right arrangement and the other wrong but just what was pointed out to you back in Message 3 of this thread.
jar writes:
First, there is no evidence that the bones, joints and muscles are in just the right position. The evidence shows that they are in just good enough position to get by.
ICDESIGN writes:
My underlining question is HOW? How exactly does evolution produce 5 distinctly different joints? All any of you ever have for an answer is an inference that rm/ns produced them for the sake of survival.
No, that is not what folk say. No one claims that different joints were produced for anything.
What folk have been saying is that joints, bones and muscles that don't function will leave the critter at an reproductive disadvantage.
It is simple really. Them critters that are just good enough to get by survive. Them that can't, don't.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICdesign, posted 08-29-2010 10:14 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 69 of 527 (577800)
08-30-2010 1:28 PM


Let's stop and think for a second.
What happens to a critter that is born with joints that don't work, muscles that don't control their limbs, bones too short, long or too weak?
It doesn't keep up with the herd, avoid predators, it dies; it does not get to pass along its genes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 80 of 527 (577858)
08-30-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 6:50 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
Show me a organism that is under evolutionary construction that is surviving with an incomplete system please.
Do you have any idea how silly that question is and why so many folk here chuckle when you make such comments?
It is really important that you understand how silly that one is, but to understand, you really need to figure it out on your own.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:50 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 85 of 527 (577864)
08-30-2010 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 7:01 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
I concede. That was a dumb approach when there is no evolution taking place anywhere.
That's not a very good answer either so let's try again.
Here is the post you were responding to.
jar writes:
ICDESIGN writes:
Show me a organism that is under evolutionary construction that is surviving with an incomplete system please.
Do you have any idea how silly that question is and why so many folk here chuckle when you make such comments?
It is really important that you understand how silly that one is, but to understand, you really need to figure it out on your own.
Let me try to help you.
As a first step, what happens to a critter that is born with incomplete systems that are essential systems?
We will go slowly through this.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:01 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 90 of 527 (577876)
08-30-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 7:27 PM


You mean "The Lord has shown my heart that your fate has been sealed and to stay clear of you so this is the last I have to say to you." that one?
What does that have to do with you learning the answer to the question you raised?
Do you want to learn how life evolves?
Let me try to help you.
As a first step, what happens to a critter that is born with incomplete systems that are essential systems?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:27 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 131 of 527 (578278)
09-01-2010 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by ICdesign
09-01-2010 4:06 AM


I still would like an answer to the question I've been asking you throughout this thread.
What happens to a critter that is born with incomplete systems that are essential systems?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ICdesign, posted 09-01-2010 4:06 AM ICdesign has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-01-2010 11:40 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 133 of 527 (578303)
09-01-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Bolder-dash
09-01-2010 11:40 AM


Well, think about it and come back when you think you have it figured out.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-01-2010 11:40 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 141 of 527 (578432)
09-01-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ICdesign
09-01-2010 6:20 PM


Re: Seeking to understand basis for incredulity
ICDESIGN writes:
As I said in Message 71, if an organism isn't fully formed from the beginning it cannot exist. (of course I am talking about going back to the very first ones)
I still would like an answer to the question I've been asking you throughout this thread.
What happens to a critter that is born with incomplete systems that are essential systems?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ICdesign, posted 09-01-2010 6:20 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 155 of 527 (578503)
09-01-2010 8:52 PM


So next step headed towards Evolving the Musculoskeletal System.
What minimal systems are needed for something to be alive?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 174 of 527 (578679)
09-02-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICdesign
09-02-2010 3:34 AM


Re: Seeking to understand basis for incredulity
So if an organism starts out fully formed with the systems it needs to survive already fully developed, that is an act of creation not evolution.
Nope, it is called a normal birth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ICdesign, posted 09-02-2010 3:34 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 190 of 527 (579056)
09-03-2010 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ICdesign
09-03-2010 12:59 PM


Re: Seeking to understand basis for incredulity
This is wild speculation with no evidence to support such a claim. If it started with chemicals it should be repeatable with chemicals....or let me guess, those chemicals conveniently no longer exist right?
And how did that "organism" become fully formed? ...just dumb luck at its best I guess.
Of course there is evidence. A great example is that in the oldest known rocks there are chemicals but no signs of life. We can say with a very high degree of confidence that chemical reactions were going on before there was life.
And yes, if life started as a chemical reaction it should be repeatable. And guess what, that is exactly what is being done in the Science of Abiogenesis.
By definition, organisms are always fully formed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ICdesign, posted 09-03-2010 12:59 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
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