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Author Topic:   Is there any proof of beneficial mutations?
Nij
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 5 of 166 (579317)
09-04-2010 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Xstar
09-03-2010 8:06 PM


Not specifically, but pretty much everywhere
Hi Xstar, welcome to EvC.
I am new to these boards, so forgive me if this has already been asked.
I'm new myself, but you get used to the place after reading the threads for a week or two. You'll figure out what has and has not been discussed or mentioned or explained.
I have searched high and low to find any evidence supporting a beneficial mutation. All I have ever seen is mutations where it seems as though it would hinder the creature, not help it.
There have been specific experiments designed to induce a beneficial mutation in bacteria; a bacterium that was known not to possess any capability of lactose metabolism was cloned, and placed in a medium that selected for precisely that metabolism. After a few thousand generations, the majority of the population had developed it.
The only way that ability could have arisen was through mutation. And since it clearly increases the ability of that organism to survive, it is beneficial.
This in particular was described in a recently active thread, somewhere in this forum as well. You might be able to find it; pay special attention to posts by Wounded King explaining the matter to us others.
Also, I have never seen any evidence of a creature gaining anything new, which be required for the evolution theory. This really makes me question evolution, since it's based completely off mutations.
Nylon-eating bacteria and oil-eating bacteria are two clear examples of a new trait developing. Then there's these beneficial mutations which provide a definite advantage to survival; the CCR5 delta32 for example meant a higher probability of getting through plague or serious infection. Then there's plenty of evidence in the fossil record and in genetics for the existence of them.
When it comes to it, only a minority of mutations actually have any effect.
A majority of them are neutral; something like 70% don't actually change the protein structure in any meaningful way and so they aren't selected for or against. Of the rest, quite a few are obviously bad. They kill the organism no matter what, so they're definitely harmful and for this reason harmful mutations are simply more likely than beneficial ones. But for many, it's about context: what's good for one thing in one place might be bad for another or in another place.
So, when all things are considered, there's plenty of evidence for this part of evolution, and for evolution in general.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Xstar, posted 09-03-2010 8:06 PM Xstar has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 22 of 166 (579552)
09-05-2010 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Bolder-dash
09-05-2010 12:13 AM


Lol. Too bad for you that your misconception is not the theory then.
Time? A zillion billion generations to maintain the exact form, the exact same structure? How much time do you want?
But it's not the exact same structure. There are clear differences in several proteins that make the evolved bacteria much more likely to survive than their ancestors.
If you use bacteria to prove your theory works, you fail.
How do we fail to validate a theory by validating it?
Bacteria proves that all the mutations in the history of time are not enough to do anything more than keep a bacteria a bacteria. Now matter how many generations we study they never do anything more than change their diets. People who don't drink milk are still people, and bacteria that eat nylon are still bacteria.
Pay attention to what people on these fora have told you and you might actually know that's not the case.
And they do far more than change diets. They develop immunities; they develop methods of evolving faster; they develop(ed) methods of movement; they did a huge array of things that you refuse to acknowledge, because you know that it shows you to be wrong.
The laws of probability say that every mutation that ever could happen to bacteria has already happened many times. Bacteria proves the theory must be wrong.
No, they don't: they say the probability approaches one, not that it is one. But yes, they probably have undergone every possible mutation at some point.
Guess what? Having a mutation isn't automatically going to result in a new kind or species. You've got around a hundred mutations yourself, just like every other human alive, and we obviously don't consider different humans to be different species.
Finally, your conclusion is a non sequitur. It does not follow from the existence of mutations and the continued existence of bacteria that evolution doesn't exist.
Is it too much to ask for you to actually try understanding the theory? Other creationists seem able to do it; why does your type of creo insist on beating strawmen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-05-2010 12:13 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 34 of 166 (579780)
09-06-2010 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dogmafood
09-06-2010 12:40 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
It probably is. But seeing as the OPer isn't coming back and the OP has been answered rather succinctly thrice thrice over...
There's certainly the standard mutagens; chemical reagents that interfere, strong radiation, etc. that will result in more mutations occuring.
But as for nylon resulting in mutations that make it easier to metabolise nylon*, I don't think so. It's more the case that where you don't have nylon, the proteins that metabolise it are useless and get selected against; where they are useful, they get selected for. Just like normal -- no "preselection" or "concious adaptation" involved as several creationists prefer to claim.
*IIRC it's not actually nylon, but the monomers in the wastewater that get thrown out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dogmafood, posted 09-06-2010 12:40 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dogmafood, posted 09-06-2010 1:09 AM Nij has not replied

  
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