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Author Topic:   Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 105 (589074)
10-30-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
10-29-2010 1:05 PM


There is little unique in the Bible
There is very little in the Bible that is unique or unusual. The basic and IMHO really important passage is of course Matthew 22:36-40
quote:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The Bible is just one source for wisdom and inspiration and after reading that one short passage I'd suggest that you look at the works of Confucus and Mencius (the former dealing mostly with the ethics of people while the later deals mostly with the ethics of leaders and rulers) and then the Tao Te Ching.
For information on behavior and morality, the Eastern writers and the Western Philosophers are likely better sources. Most of the Bible deals not with behavior or morality but rather with the mythos of creating a Hebrew identity and then later, the creation of a Christian identity.
It is interesting to me though that there does seem to be an almost universal enlightening that happened in several waves, the first around the middle to late bronze age and another that begins around two thousand year ago.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 105 (589098)
10-30-2010 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
10-30-2010 2:34 PM


Re: Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration
And even if what Buz claimed was true, how does that in any way address any value of the content?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 105 (589105)
10-30-2010 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
10-30-2010 3:47 PM


Re: Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration
Buz writes:
The thread OP calls for references to content. One must read thoughtfully the content of reference to benefit the value of content. Savvy?
No Buz, I don't savvy. You said:
Buz writes:
It is unique; a compilation of 66 books, written over a period of some 1500 years from diverse nations by roughly 40 different writers from all walks of life including lowly self educated shepherds, nomadic prophets dwelling in the wilderness, fishermen, highly educated noblemen and majestic kings.
Even if that is true, how does that in any way address any value of the content? How would it make the Bible any more valuable then the Vedas, the Eight Fold Path, the writings of Confucius or Mencius, the Tao Te Ching or the Avestan?

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 105 (589115)
10-30-2010 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
10-30-2010 4:04 PM


Re: There is little unique in the Bible
Sure. But what I am looking for is some insight into why the bible specifically is considered a great work of literature/art/inspiration/whatever even if one is not persuaded by the overtly religious message. Even many of those who condemn the religious beliefs that the bible is obvioulsy so closely related to seem to consider it something a bit special just as a book. No?
Not as "A Book". It really is not a book as we normally think of a book, a tome that has some consistent purpose or thread throughout.
The Bible is a collection of books or stories, as I often say, an anthology of anthologies. It has no single purpose, instead it has a variety of purposes, often ones that directly contradict other portions. There are sections of poetry, some great, most mediocre, parts that were meant as laws or rules, parts that were meant as historical epics meant to develop an identity (actually several different identities over time) and still others that serve as a snap shot of the time or period, much like old faded tintypes.
It has doubtless had a profound effect on Western civilisation and thought. But is that just a case of right time right place?
Absolutely. Remember that the creation of "a Bible" was a state decision, a matter of a state decision to create one unified manual that would be used in all of the churches built by the State Religion. The Christian concept of a Bible was something new, even the Jewish practice of Canonization only extended to a list of scrolls, and not the compilation of a single authorized version.
It was not the only example though. Zoroastrianism as another example was the official state religion of Persia and as such dominated much of the area for about a thousand years until the Persian influence fell to the influence and power of Rome. There are other examples too, the spread of Hinduism under the earlier Indian subcontinent powers, the official recognition of Confucianism.
The West though was most definitely the result of the rise of Christian powers as Rome expanded throughout western Europe, imposing it's state religion and later carried on by the political powers that arose after Rome faded away.
From your comments I am getting that you don't actually think the bible is anything that should be considered particulalrly special outside of it's overtly religious teachings. Is that right?
Not exactly. I think that the morality and ethics in teh Bible can also be found in almost every one of the various religions mentioned.
I think a major significant feature of the Bible is that it goes beyond just the ethics and morality. If we look at the Bible as something more than just a book, and look at all the great variety found within it we can see something really profound, one of the best examples of the evolution of theistic thought over an extended period that survives.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 105 (589126)
10-30-2010 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
10-30-2010 5:17 PM


Re: There is little unique in the Bible
The Bible was essentially completed by A.D. 100. A couple of books, including Revelation were not included until later. The apostolic church relied on the teaching of Jesus' about God, Heaven, doctrine and how to set up the church. This was given to the apostles, compiled and handed down from them to the church bishops and deacons throughout the apostolic era.
Come on Buz.
The various books were written by early in the 2nd. Century certainly but they were NOT compiled or assembled into the new creation, a Bible, until the Committees of Canon under Constantine.
Remember that the issue in Canonization was primarily excluding books, including ones that Jesus seemed to be familiar with and used such as the Book of Enoch.
It's really well into the 4th. Century that the final decisions were made to include the current 27 books in the New Testament.
Unless of course you can show evidence that supports some earlier Canon or Ecumenical Councils?
AbE:
mostly for the general audience.
The issue of what was included in a Bible was a serious contention during the period between the first and fourth centuries CE in both the Jewish and Christian communities. For example, while we normally think of there being 39 books in the Old Testament, Josephus said there were 22, Jerome states 22, 24 and even 27, the Babylonian Talmud mention 24.
Edited by jar, : add more info

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 105 (589165)
10-30-2010 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
10-30-2010 11:28 PM


Re: Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration
Try teaching the New England Primer, chock full of Biblical stuff or singing from the Isaac Watts Hymnal to the kiddies in your average public school, major sources of education curricula for over a century in our nation's schools. See how long you would last doing that.
I'm sorry Buz but alleging that is forbidding you to practice your religion is simply not true and yet another false assertion on your part. You are NOT prevented from practicing your religion, only from imposing YOUR religion on others using public funds.
It also has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic.
Maybe you can show some unique source of wisdom or inspiration that is not also found in most of the other religions, philosophies and ethics systems?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2010 11:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 105 (589426)
11-02-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jaywill
11-02-2010 7:29 AM


Re: Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration
It might be more honest if you had actually quoted what I said instead of once again taking things out of context.
What I asked (and note, it was a question) was...
jar writes:
How would it make the Bible any more valuable then the Vedas, the Eight Fold Path, the writings of Confucius or Mencius, the Tao Te Ching or the Avestan?
which was a question addressed to Buz who made the assertion that:
quote:
It is unique; a compilation of 66 books, written over a period of some 1500 years from diverse nations by roughly 40 different writers from all walks of life including lowly self educated shepherds, nomadic prophets dwelling in the wilderness, fishermen, highly educated noblemen and majestic kings.
Perhaps you can point out your support for YOUR assertions or even explain how what Buz asserted, even if true, would add some value that is not present in the others?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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