Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,890 Year: 4,147/9,624 Month: 1,018/974 Week: 345/286 Day: 1/65 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Neo-Darwinian evolution require change ?
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 52 of 114 (601090)
01-18-2011 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by slevesque
01-18-2011 3:43 PM


Of course this is all probabilities talk, since obviously population size goes up and down. But it cannot for too long downwards, because genetic meltdown is never far away.
You have yet to show this. Also, as a population dwindles over a few generations this can reduce the deleterious mutation load far easier than in a growing or stable population. You can have a cycle of booms and busts that negate genetic meltdown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by slevesque, posted 01-18-2011 3:43 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:22 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 53 of 114 (601091)
01-18-2011 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by slevesque
01-18-2011 5:01 PM


Re: Microbes, evolution's cavalry
Turns out E.Coli has both right answers for it to be able to maintain stasis. It's mutations rate is under 1mpipg and it can withstand enormous selective pressures (you can rebuild the entire population even after having decimated it to a few individuals. genetic meltdown is not an option)
You can also reduce a mammalian population from millions to a few thousand and re-establish the species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by slevesque, posted 01-18-2011 5:01 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 58 of 114 (601119)
01-18-2011 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by slevesque
01-18-2011 4:38 PM


Re: Mutation rates
but the ENCODE project has opened the possibility that the entire genome would be functional, and even that some times both sides of the DNA strand is useful, putting it's functionality at over 100%.
Just in case the horse isn't dead . . .
You have made the mistake of conflating functional with transcribed. Even taking the kindest view of the ENCODE results, the best one can say is that nearly all of the genome is transcribed at some point. However, just because an mRNA is produced does not indicate that it has function. Even more, the number of transcripts per cell is so low for most of these mRNA's that function is doubtful. To use an analogy, you are looking for a signal in the static that doesn't exist. Sometimes you just have to admit that it just is random noise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by slevesque, posted 01-18-2011 4:38 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 67 of 114 (601272)
01-19-2011 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by slevesque
01-19-2011 3:24 PM


Re: Microbes, evolution's cavalry
Unless you are implying tht mammalian populations can sustain as much intense selective pressures as E.Coli, you'll have to explain to me what this has to do with what you quoted.
In the short term, yes. The American Bison went from 10's of millions to just a few thousand and they are now making a comeback. The same for the walrus. Other species, such as the cheetah, show definite signs of a sever bottleneck indicative of intense selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:24 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 69 of 114 (601274)
01-19-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by slevesque
01-19-2011 3:22 PM


And even so, it does not stop the mutation load from accumulating, since every single individual that would survive would still have inherited multiple mutations.
And for each round of genetic recombination in the gametes there is a loss of multiple mutations. Also, individuals with a higher load of deleterious mutations will be selected against allowing for selective sweeps.
And if high selective pressure breaks down the mutational load, relaxed selective pressures accelerate it. And so, at the end of the day, if you had a population of x individuals, and you finish with x individuals, putting boom and bust cycles in between won't really have changed anything.
The bust cycle resets the mutational load, so yes it has changed. You are only measuring the load since the last bust cycle instead of the origin of all life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:22 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 71 of 114 (601276)
01-19-2011 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by slevesque
01-19-2011 3:34 PM


Re: The Dance of the Population Curves
But taking Natural selection as that it kills (or totally prevents from reproducing) is taking it at it's most powerful form. Taking it in simply reduced or ehanced reproductive success only makes matters worse.
You are forgetting about genetic recombination and selective sweeps. If selection is looked at through the lens of reproductive success then you up the chances of hitting a beneficial or compensatory mutation that can then spread through the population separately from the background of slightly deleterious mutations found in the individual in which the beneficial mutation occurred. IOW, you up the chance for beneficial mutations.
As I said, I can see such things happen in E.Coli population because there mutation rates are under 1mpipg.
Are you taking the size of the E. coli genome into account? The human genome is 1,000 times larger than the E. coli genome.
Cost of selection is certainly a very important notion in population genetics.
So is the deleterious nature of these mutations. If their affect is so slight as to be a non-factor then it really doesn't matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:34 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 73 of 114 (601278)
01-19-2011 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by slevesque
01-19-2011 3:42 PM


Re: Mutation rates
What I said concerning ENCODE was simply that it ''opened up the possibility'' that the entire genome had a function.
To use the analogy I used before, this is like saying that since you can hear static on your radio that this opens up the possibility that there is a radio station on every part of the dial.
Therefore, all I'm saying is that when seeing how genetics has been unravelling the secrets of previously thought ''junk DNA'', and how more evidence comes to open the possibility that maybe the whole genome is functional, I think it is the idea that any part of the genome is junk that should be regarder with great skepticism, not the other way around.
At the same time, there are sections of the genome that have accumulated mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift. These include processed pseudogenes which were the first to be called "junk DNA". If they do serve a function it is probably independent of the actual DNA sequence. The more we learn of genetics the easier it is to find junk DNA. Even more, scientists have removed over 2.3 million base pairs from the mouse genome with no visible change or loss of function. This is one half the size of the E. coli genome. Obviously, there is much more vestigial DNA in the eukaryotic genome than in the prokaryotic genome.
"We deleted two large non-coding intervals, 1,511 kilobases and 845 kilobases in length, from the mouse genome. Viable mice homozygous for the deletions were generated and were indistinguishable from wild-type littermates with regard to morphology, reproductive fitness, growth, longevity and a variety of parameters assaying general homeostasis."
Megabase deletions of gene deserts result in viable mice - PubMed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:42 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 109 of 114 (608469)
03-10-2011 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by shadow71
03-09-2011 7:45 PM


Re: Mutation rates
Is it agreed in the scientific biological community that Mattick is correct about "junk DNA" and their effect on the conrol of human development and brain function?
Mattick leaps to the conclusion, as seen in this sentence:
"Moreover, it is now evident that these non-coding sequences are transcribed in a dynamic manner, to produce tens, if not hundreds of thousands of noncoding RNAs, and that most complex genetic phenomena are RNA-directed, which suggests that there exists a vast hidden layer of regulatory RNAs that control human development and brain function."
Mattick leaps from "transcribed" to "has function" without ever showing that there is function. Also, if Mattick is relying on the ENCODE data sets I think most would agree that it is way to early to make any judgements. Some have even challenged the ENCODE data in that some of their data may be related to shorter products from known genes. Also, the number of transcripts from "junk DNA" is very low compared to RNA from known genes.
I would say that Mattick's conclusion is not supported by the evidence in hand.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by shadow71, posted 03-09-2011 7:45 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by shadow71, posted 03-10-2011 7:10 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024