Design and the intelligence hypothesis

What's interesting about this is unbelieving scientists had no problem before the Big Bang to the idea that universe had no beginning, but now people with the same logic claim it is illogical to think of a God that has no beginning.That, to me, is very telling in terms of the intellectual honesty or lack thereof among the God-scoffers.This message has been edited by randman, 07-29-2005 11:06 PM

It's hard to imagine how you guys could honestly not see this.The demand that complexity in the physical world suggests a Designer and an Intelligence is germane to the physical world. The design suggests an intelligence, but the claim is not that the intelligence automatically suggests a designer, although that could be true.For example, the fact that something is designed by a person is evidence there is a designer, and it is evidence there is intelligence, but in terms of naturalistic observations, we cannot say the intelligence itself, however complex, is evidence of a designer. The intelligence is an attribute of the designer, not the thing designed.I think intelligence is evidence of a Creator, but in terms of ID and science and what we know about design in the physical world, the claim is not that the fact humans possess intelligence indicates Intelligent Design in this area of the debate.I will concede that could be so in information theory, but there is an answer to that as well. Man is created in the image of God, or so it is said. Man has a spirit. So if one attributes intelligence, creativity, and other God-like attributes to man remaining in connection with God to a degree, sort of like man's spirit being borrowed from God, then we see that intelligence and things like that could stem from God as much as just being a design of God, and get around the whole argument since the intelligence is something borrowed, on loan from God as El Rushbo says!This message has been edited by randman, 07-29-2005 11:16 PM

Maybe this can help you as far as time being created. In our sense of time, we are no longer present in the moment that just passed.God is. He is present in every point of time, and as such exists apart and beyond time, but within time, at the same time.Understand, or no?

It's simple. The scientific community did not scoff at the idea that universe had no beginning, as if it was illogical.They had no disagreement with it in principle, but just found that the evidence supported the idea the universe had a beginning.So it's clear that the scientific community and mentality is not that it is illogical to think something could exist without a beginning, unless of course we are talking about God.If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, that's too bad.This message has been edited by randman, 07-29-2005 11:48 PM

If God is present in every point of time, then He is also apart from time in the sense that we are "in" time from our experience. We are present in one point of time.God being present in all points of time is not therefore limited to one point in time, and is thus apart from it.Maybe this will help. God is also present at every physical spot. There is no place where God does not exist, nor that He is not present in some sense.But that doesn't mean God is not apart from all of creation as well. In fact, His omnipresence is a feature that sets Him apart from the creation.Same with time.

I am sorry, but if it takes "simple rules", then that's design by definition. The fact someone can use a few simple rules to program a computer to create design is evidence for design, not against it.The question then becomes if these "simple rules" can emerge on their own or if it is reasonable to assume there is causal agent creating these simple rules, and if there is a causal agent, then what created that?This message has been edited by randman, 08-01-2005 03:22 AMThis message has been edited by randman, 08-01-2005 03:24 AM

The coin was designed, no?The laws of gravity, etc,..pre-exist and reflect design and order, right?In other words, the process reflects a program that provides for some seeming randomness from our perspective, if you put certain inputs into it.But it will still fall, right? It does not just float off. There is predictability, a set of choices are predetermined even if the results are not exactly determined. It will be heads or tail every time, except maybe it could land on it's side.

I agree. There is a design element to all things. The only real question is how the design got there and what keeps it existing.

That's not the argument. Things that appear designed most likely are. There are cases of things appearing designed but were not apparently, but forensic science is the study of design.The universe does exhibit design. That's a fact. The question is where does the design come from, and to what degree or in what way are things "designed."