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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 350 (606723)
02-28-2011 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 12:54 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
Since the money came from the American worker...
How so? Increases in GDP do not solely come from increases in the productivity of the American worker. Why? Lets look at the Real GDP and population growth from 1970 to 2009.
Relative to the value of the dollar in 2005, in 1970 the average worker's share of the GDP was $20,819.74. In 2009 it was $41,890.45. Are you suggesting that the average American worker somehow managed to increase the yield of "the sweat of their brow" by a little more than double simply through working harder?
What do you think the figures were for the previous 40 years? Just under 3 times greater; exactly how little do you think people worked back then?
crashfrog writes:
Furthermore you haven't actually outlined how this "theft" is taking place.
That's not really in the scope of the discussion.
Oh I see how it is.
"They are stealing from us!"
"Oh really, how?"
"Well... I have less money than I think I should have! Everything else is kinda fuzzy..."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 12:54 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:48 AM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 247 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2011 10:14 AM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 269 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:48 PM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 350 (606774)
02-28-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Straggler
02-28-2011 6:48 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
If I have understood what you are saying then isn't it inevitable that wealth gets ever and ever more concentrated?
Not necessarily. Its always possible for someone to be an idiot and lose their fortune. In the slightly longer term fortunes can be broken up among offspring.
Straggler writes:
And if this wealth is then passed down the generations within a family you end up with a situation where the tiny minority of people who own practically everything have never actually put in any real effort into anything.
If you allow people to keep the fruits of their labor then yes. Those people are in essence standing on the backs of their ancestors. This in no way hinders the ability of others to get ahead and to make their fortunes, and in fact it makes it easier due to the vast amounts of investment capital available.
But I suspect you are going to whine about how its terrible you can't have their money. That those of our current generation who work really hard are somehow entitled to the wealth of the previous generation no matter who they were. Or that such a distribution of wealth must have terrible results for our form of government.
What it comes down to is that if you let people invest in their children, their children will be better off. Either you get rid of the idea of inheritance or you will just have to deal with that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:48 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 11:05 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 350 (606777)
02-28-2011 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Bolder-dash
02-28-2011 10:14 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Bolder-dash writes:
Relative to the value of the dollar in 2005, in 1970 the average worker's share of the GDP was $20,819.74. In 2009 it was $41,890.45.
What?? How about suggesting that $20,000 in 1970 is not equivalent to HALF of $40,000 in 2009 dollars!
No wonder you can't quite understand how squeezing the middle class leads to a poorer economy.
Oh come on, you even quoted it: "Relative to the value of the dollar in 2005..." All of those figures were relative to that value. The figures are about "real GDP" converted to a common standard and adjusted for population so it was actually a useful statistic.
If you aren't going to bother to read there isn't much help I can offer on a text-based forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2011 10:14 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2011 11:00 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 350 (606781)
02-28-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Bolder-dash
02-28-2011 10:47 AM


Bolder-dash writes:
If a company like McDonald's can make the most unhealthy food they are capable of producing, as long as they can produce it cheaply and people will buy it this is what they will do.
and people will buy it
Who are you to say what people should eat? If they want to eat cheap, unhealthy food then that is their choice of how to allocate their resources. Its not like healthy food isn't available to them, its just that apparently you have a problem with what you would consider a suboptimal choice even being available.
Well thats freedom, get over it. I won't be lectured by a wannabe autocrat.
Bolder-dash writes:
If the CEO of a decent company that makes a steady 10% profit of their business year in and year out, and can employ a large workforce in the community, can suddenly find a way to close down one of its factories to cause a sudden bump in their share price, and then retire and get out, this is what he will do, even if it destroys their annual 10% profit.
This is actually a legitimate fear, and is one of the problems in compensation that companies and their investors take great pains to mitigate. It isn't as you suggest something to be expected or welcomed in a capitalist society.
Bolder-dash writes:
There is not incentive in the capitalist system to make the best product, there is incentive to make the cheapest or most profitable.
Actually there is an incentive to fill every niche. The first company will balance quality and cost to find the right balance between number of customers and price for greatest profit. The second will have to compete in some way; one will probably end up being the lowest cost producer and the other will differentiate themselves in some way, usually through quality.
Look at the computer industry: Apple has a comparatively tiny amount of the market share yet they have been enormously profitable. Thats because they have grabbed a large portion of the high-end computer sales market through differentiation as the leader in quality. Quality sells.
Bolder-dash writes:
Their goal would be to provide the most profitable security force possible, not the safest.
And what do people want to buy? Probably the safest security force, although to be specific they probably don't want the safest money can buy. Guarding their store with an APC and a horde of hardened former SWAT members is probably overkill.
People get what they want, not some idealized extreme that makes you cream your pants when you imagine it.
Bolder-dash writes:
Their goal would be to provide the most profitable food possible, not the healthiest.
So people get the food they want, not the food thats theoretically best for them. Yes, they don't have Bolder-dash the autocrat lording over them deciding what they can and cannot eat.
Bolder-dash writes:
Their goal would be to produce the most profitable medicine possible, not the most effective.
I'm having trouble imagining under what circumstances exactly people are going to of their free will purchase less effective medicines given the option.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2011 10:47 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 350 (606783)
02-28-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Straggler
02-28-2011 11:05 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
Short of such idiocy the richest 1% will rightfully just get ever more wealthy as far as you are concerned?
So whats your plan, that just because your ancestors built up an infrastructure to aid you that it should be harder for you to make a profit? Or even impossible for you to just break even?
Straggler writes:
Phage writes:
In the slightly longer term fortunes can be broken up among offspring.
Even if the human population remained static (and it seems generally accepted to be exploding) that would hardly reverse the trend of wealth resource being ever more concentrated in the hands of a miniscule minority that your description thus far seems to all-but inevitably result in. Would it?
Maybe not. But I notice you still haven't tackled the question of what business it is of yours that other people have wealth. Looking at everything that exists and seeing others producing more with their greater resources, and being jealous, isn't a reasonable basis for wealth redistribution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 11:05 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 11:47 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 350 (606784)
02-28-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Bolder-dash
02-28-2011 11:00 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Bolder-dash writes:
The point you were missing was that those figures have no meaning whatsoever in regards to modern life.
Right, now you start to deny the economic reality. Well Bolder-dash, how about a taste of your own medicine?
Your figures about GDP growth and the concentration of wealth in the hands of a minority have no meaning whatsoever in regards to modern life. You still have the same ability to increase your fortune and profit from your labor as you ever did, or as anyone does.
Your spun numbers about how the wealthy are mysteriously filching from the poor, in ways you refuse to address, have absolutely zero value for drawing conclusions about anything.
Bolder-dash writes:
They are adjusted to fit whatever one wants them to fit. Are they from the Heritage Foundation?
Actually, the particular calculator I used was developed by a pair of Economics professors from the University of Illinois at Chicago. Lawrence H. Officer and Samuel H. Williamson if you want to look them up. As for their data, its hardly a secret what with the US collecting and publishing GDP numbers and inflation rates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2011 11:00 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 350 (606790)
02-28-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Straggler
02-28-2011 11:47 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
But I am astounded that you don’t see any sort of problem with things as you have described them. How can the runaway concentration of greater and greater wealth in the hands of a miniscule minority that your description results in be seen as desirable?
And I'm astounded that you can't seem to couch your greed in other terms.
Straggler writes:
Surely the systems we put in place to control the distribution of limited resources amongst humanity is everyone’s business isn’t it?
You realize that the total wealth in the world isn't a static amount, right?
Straggler writes:
And when those in possession of that wealth have done nothing to earn that stratospheric degree of wealth other than be wealthy questions of fairness are frankly inevitable aren’t they?
Since when does leaving your assets to your children have to be fair? Are you fair to your children compared to the rest of the children in the world?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 11:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 12:09 PM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 350 (606798)
02-28-2011 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Straggler
02-28-2011 12:09 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
So do you really think the system you have described is a good one?
Yes I do. Building upon the advancements of our ancestors is what the progress of the human race is based upon. Being able to make things better for your children is both a central and respectable motive for a person.
A long and successful family line leaving the resulting generations many resources is the logical expectation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2011 12:18 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 263 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 1:02 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 350 (606804)
02-28-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Theodoric
02-28-2011 12:18 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Theodoric writes:
So you are looking forward to the foundation of an aristocratic class of the idle wealthy?
The days of Georgian and Victorian England are an ideal for you?
Can't wait till we bring back the workhouses and debtors prisons? So much good comes from orphanages doesn't it.
And there comes the rhetoric.
You didn't actually point out any particular stage of the process thats unfair or undesirable, you just skipped straight to bitching about people being wealthier than you.
You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2011 12:18 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2011 1:21 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 272 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:52 PM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 350 (606821)
02-28-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by RAZD
02-28-2011 1:07 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
RAZD writes:
Ok? Whats your argument exactly, that the rich are too rich? Can you define that in a way that isn't based on "I want their money"?
Easy: I want MY share of profits for MY share of the effort.
You are getting it. Without the invested money your efforts are not terribly profitable.
RAZD writes:
Except that they are not exclusive either. You do not get a decrease in value without a decrease in percentage because there is only so much value to go around at any one time.
WRONG! You could get a decrease in value without a change in percentage if the overall value available decreased. You are trying to compare a reduction in overall percentage share from one year to the next with a static view of the overall value available, which is simply wrong.
RAZD writes:
The ability to purchase is dependent on the percentage of wealth owned by each individual so when that percentage decreases, their ability to buy decreases. That is a decrease in their percentage of value.
NNNNoooooo, it also depends on the amount of stuff out there available for purchase. You are leaving out massive elements of the equation.
If someone's share of the total money supply decreases by 1% but the amount of goods available to purchase doubles... their purchasing power dramatically increased.
RAZD writes:
You seem to think that in an ideal world everyone can work happily and make a profit.
Yes they can, your poor understanding of economic notwithstanding.
RAZD writes:
Every one should have their first dollar taxed the same, but the 10th dollar should be taxed more and the 100th dollar even more, etc
This discourages investment, making it harder for the poor to find investment capital. Being unable to buy equipment or labor which they can leverage into increased profit is hurting them, not helping them.
RAZD writes:
Curiously, millionaires seem to pay less percentage overall than many in the middle class.
Really? My research indicates that the top 1% of wealthy Americans between 2007 and 2008 paid 38% of all federal income taxes but earned 20% of adjusted gross income.
The top 5% of earners paid far more than the bottom 95%. Where on Earth are you getting your data?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 1:07 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 7:16 PM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 350 (606823)
02-28-2011 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Theodoric
02-28-2011 1:21 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Theodoric writes:
Wow lets look at my post and see if I was bitching.
Lets.
So you are looking forward to the foundation of an aristocratic class of the idle wealthy?
I said nothing of the sort, thats bitching. I never even hinted at the rich being a ruling class of any sort, or that they would necessarily be idle (although in theory they could if they wished).
The days of Georgian and Victorian England are an ideal for you?
Again, not even slightly mentioned. The problems of Georgian and Victorian England are easily identifiable as oppressive practices, not just because someone had a bunch of money. The monetary accumulation was a byproduct, not the cause.
Can't wait till we bring back the workhouses and debtors prisons?
Again, this has nothing to do with anything I said. Bankruptcy is certainly agreeable and the very idea of a "free market" goes against workhouses. Its just more bitching from you.
So much good comes from orphanages doesn't it.
And what does this even have to do with economics? Emotional bitching from start to finish.
Are you a proponent of the opt out idea?
No, and in fact I'm not especially against the idea of progressive taxation. The idea of not taxing the poor who can't afford it is reasonable and directly extensible to offloading that burden onto those who can afford it.
However, keep in mind that investment is an effort multiplier. Having investment capital available makes people much more productive than otherwise, and hurting investment opportunities is detrimental to overall progress. Taxation is a necessary element of running a society with public services, but drawing too much from discretionary income has long term social and infrastructure issues as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2011 1:21 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2011 2:21 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 350 (606834)
02-28-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 2:48 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
Are you suggesting that the average American worker somehow managed to increase the yield of "the sweat of their brow" by a little more than double simply through working harder?
Sure! Working harder, working smarter, working longer hours - an eight-hour workday is only one third of a day, after all - it's not that difficult to imagine the average worker doubling their productivity. Even if they simply worked two shifts instead of one, there's enough hours to do that and still get home for a night's rest. It's not good for you, which may partially explain the dramatic decrease in American public health since 1970.
So, the notion of workers doubling their productivity isn't all that unreasonable. There are 24 whole hours in a day, and in 1970 they were only working for a third of them. We could explain the increase in productivity simply by supposing that workers are working twice as many hours.
I'm not going to bother responding if you aren't even going to make a pretense of addressing reality.
crashfrog writes:
Just under 3 times greater; exactly how little do you think people worked back then?
I think there were less people working, and people were working less effectively due to more primitive technologies.
Its adjusted for the change in population.
And yes, the technology and equipment was a big factor. Thats investment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:54 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 350 (606837)
02-28-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 2:52 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it.
What's your evidence that they earned it, aside from the fact that they have it?
Whats your evidence that they didn't? I don't have to justify that I earned and deserve what I own to you, and neither do they. If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:57 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 280 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 4:31 PM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 350 (606839)
02-28-2011 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 2:57 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
Whats your evidence that they didn't?
Their wealth increased but their productivity remained static, as you've already agreed.
No, in fact I expressly disagreed to that on the grounds that their invested wealth is responsible for increases in productivity. You have continually misrepresented my position, things to which I have agreed, and even data which you have provided.
Since you are not going to discuss this honestly, I am done here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 3:12 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 350 (606857)
02-28-2011 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Straggler
02-28-2011 4:31 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
The system where significant wealth itself breeds more wealth.
Lets start over on the basics. Consider the statement:
"Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity."
Do you agree with this statement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 4:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:18 PM Phage0070 has replied

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