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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: American Budget Cuts | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phage0070 Inactive Member |
crashfrog writes: Are you suggesting that the average American worker somehow managed to increase the yield of "the sweat of their brow" by a little more than double simply through working harder? Sure! Working harder, working smarter, working longer hours - an eight-hour workday is only one third of a day, after all - it's not that difficult to imagine the average worker doubling their productivity. Even if they simply worked two shifts instead of one, there's enough hours to do that and still get home for a night's rest. It's not good for you, which may partially explain the dramatic decrease in American public health since 1970. So, the notion of workers doubling their productivity isn't all that unreasonable. There are 24 whole hours in a day, and in 1970 they were only working for a third of them. We could explain the increase in productivity simply by supposing that workers are working twice as many hours. I'm not going to bother responding if you aren't even going to make a pretense of addressing reality.
crashfrog writes: Just under 3 times greater; exactly how little do you think people worked back then? I think there were less people working, and people were working less effectively due to more primitive technologies. Its adjusted for the change in population. And yes, the technology and equipment was a big factor. Thats investment.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it. What's your evidence that they earned it, aside from the fact that they have it?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I'm not going to bother responding if you aren't even going to make a pretense of addressing reality. Reality? How many hours are there in a day, Phage? Be specific.
Its adjusted for the change in population. Total GDP isn't, which is what we've been talking about. Well, it's what I've been talking about; you've been talking about made-up "investments" by rich people which you can't seem to identify or verify.
And yes, the technology and equipment was a big factor. Thats investment. What's your evidence that every single one of the 1% wealthiest got that way as a result of technology and equipment investments? Remember how an investment in Microsoft doesn't entitle you to money from Apple? Be specific as to these "investments." Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
crashfrog writes: You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it. What's your evidence that they earned it, aside from the fact that they have it? Whats your evidence that they didn't? I don't have to justify that I earned and deserve what I own to you, and neither do they. If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Whats your evidence that they didn't? Their wealth increased but their productivity remained static, as you've already agreed.
If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case. I already have, and you've agreed with the case by agreeing to all of its factual particulars. So it's no longer under debate that the wealthy have simply stolen the bulk of your wealth. Your sole defense are these unspecified "investments" which you refuse to discuss.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
crashfrog writes: Whats your evidence that they didn't? Their wealth increased but their productivity remained static, as you've already agreed. No, in fact I expressly disagreed to that on the grounds that their invested wealth is responsible for increases in productivity. You have continually misrepresented my position, things to which I have agreed, and even data which you have provided. Since you are not going to discuss this honestly, I am done here.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Curiously, millionaires seem to pay less percentage overall than many in the middle class. So they are stealing from the government as well as from the workers. And the poor pay no income tax while enjoying a lot of benefits that the middle class is not allowed. Talk about stealing! The way to get a lot more of something is for the government to subsidize it.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
No, in fact I expressly disagreed to that on the grounds that their invested wealth is responsible for increases in productivity. Well, ok. What's your evidence that they made these investments in the American worker? Be specific. What investments were made?
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
The middle class gets enormous amounts of money via the tax code that the poor cannot obtain, mortgage interest deductions being among the biggest.
Most of the poor are working poor, laboring away at jobs (often more than one) that their employers feel need not pay a living wage because there are always more poor people desperate enough to take them. The ruling class allows the poor in America to pay little or no taxes because the alternative would eventually topple their oligarchy. Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given. Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale? -Shakespeare Real things always push back.-William James
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Phage writes: If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case. "Dishonestly" is perhaps the wrong word. Whether by luck or judgement the stratospherically wealthy successfully played the system we have in place. The system where significant wealth itself breeds more wealth. A system that results in a runaway concentration of wealth and a system where this is rather controversially deemed to have been "earned" despite no effort on the part of the beneficiary. But the system we have in place isn't immutable is it? If the system we have is flawed and results in outcomes which were never intended - such as extreme concentrations of wealth where 1% of the population own 40% of the wealth - why shouldn't we tinker with the system to rectify that situation somewhat? The sort of changes being proposed here as far as I am aware consist of little more than the stratospherically wealthy contributing a bit more to the system that made them that wealthy in the first place. This is hardly a red revolution and I am not really sure what your objection is exactly?
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: The system where significant wealth itself breeds more wealth. Lets start over on the basics. Consider the statement: "Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity." Do you agree with this statement?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Phage writes: "Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity." Whose productivity?
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Phage writes: "Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity." Whose productivity? Either the productivity of the person who owns the wealth, or those allowed to use the wealth.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Does the productivity of the workforce come into it at all? Are they included in your "those who use the wealth"?
Surely ultimately it is the ability of those actually doing the producing whose abilities have been enhanced with new equipment or whatever. No?
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Does the productivity of the workforce come into it at all? Are they included in your "those who use the wealth"? Yes, the "workforce" are people who use the wealth. So, do you agree the wealth can be used to enhance productivity of people who use it? (this is like pulling teeth)
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