intelligent design, right and wrong

Deuteronomy 7:1-5 (NIV)

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When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations-the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

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In effect, the Final Solution of the Canaanite Question.

Sorry to go back to this one, which is off the topic, but I cannot let this rubbish pass.The people influenced by the devil, who they 'thought' was God, presumably include Moses and Joshua. When Joshua fought Jerico, he commanded the Isrealites to slaughter every man, woman and child. Was this not murder? All the wrong these people had done was to close their doors when a mighty army arrioved on their doorstep, and then sent spies into their city.
Moses was slightly more merciful. He also ordered the Isrealites to slaughter their enemies, man, woman, child, but they could spare the virgin daughters of the enemy. One can only guess why!Were these prophets carrying out the orders of God or the Devil, when they preached their 'final solution'? I cannot see the difference between them and Hitler!The Bible preaches original sin, and punishment 'even unto the seventh generation'. Is this justice? My grandfather once stole some money. Do you believe that I and my children should be punished for this? Should humanity be punished because one man ate an apple against orders?God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. If Abraham had any morality, ho would have said 'No! Human sacrifice is wrong! Murder is wrong!'. But the Bible does not teach this basic morality, does it?The morality of the Bible is Mafia morality - 'what the boss says, goes. Don't ask questions'.Right. Got that off my chest. Now back to Intelligent Design.....Mike.

old testemant and new testemant arent the same. old testemant sacrifce was needed, it isnt not anymore becuase jesus christ was the ultimate sacrifice. new testemant is the law we are held accountable to today. of course, that discussion is for another time and another place. i'm rushed for time right now, but one question, if we evolved so we could live under the circumstances of where the sun is today, wouldnt we have all died out before we got to a point where we could live under the sun?

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if we evolved so we could live under the circumstances of
where the sun is today, wouldnt we have all died out before we got to a point where we could live under the sun?

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No.The first life that developed, did so with the sun (more-or-less)
where it is now. All major biological systems then evolved
from this first 'life form' (be that a single entity or a number
of different ones).[This message has been edited by Peter, 05-21-2003]

ok, so how did the very first life form develop?

The precise answer is "don't know". If you want some hints of what we do know about the possibility then I suggest you start a new topic on that( though i'm sure there is one already).I'm of the opinion that we will, within the next 50 years, know all about serveral ways life could have developed and never know just how it did. (Ok, never is too strong, we're going to have to visit several life bearing star systems before we might nail it down )

yea, thought so, thats just one evolutionists cant figure out. but anyways, anymore thoughts on intelligent design...o, and by the way, as i said earlier the law has changed since old and new testaments, show me anywhere in the new testament where god commanded people to kill and then you win.[This message has been edited by biglfty, 05-22-2003]

You seem to miss the point that being able to say "I don't know" is what gives science it's power. Scientists don't know MANY things, but can identify what they don't know and the good scientists refuse to claim knowledge until they have pretty solid evidence.Claiming you know what happened because you read some book (which gives no detailed explanations) is easy, actual knowledge is tough.You also seem to have missed the point that abiogenesis is wholly separate from evolution. "Evolutionists" don't need to know how life began, in order to explain how it functioned once it was here.This is underlined by the fact that one of Intelligent Design's major contributors (Behe) admits that evolutionary theory is mostly and perhaps wholly true. Intelligent design may only hold true for abiogenesis.It would be helpful if you learned more about what you were critiquing, as well as what you are supporting (ID) before posting.This is not the first time I have seen a creationist waving the ID flag, and not have a clue how ID (much less science) works. And unfortunately that is exactly the criticism scientists (including religious scientists) have made against ID. It is too easily used as a tool to water down science for creationists.Saying ID is right is not the same as saying the Bible is right. It is a scientific theory and you need to understand its strengths as well as its weaknesses. If you think ID scientists don't say "I don't know" about much of how life came to be, then you haven't read any of their works.The difference is ID theorists want to use specific areas where we currently lack knowledge, which may simply be temporary, as a permanent signature of knowledge. Or at least the worst of its promoters do. A very bad move for science.------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 05-22-2003]

Yeah, here's a thought - you never answered my question. Why, if we don't yet have an natural explanation for the genesis of life, must we assume we never will have such an explanation and therefore conclude an intelligent designer?What's your evidence that our ignorance about abiogenesis will be enduring?

"What's your evidence that our ignorance about abiogenesis will be enduring?"well, the reason i choose to beleive in intelligent design is becuase of a strong faith in god, and in the bible(in simpler terms i am a christian) the bible is historically accurate. there was a man named jesus christ who came to earth who was messiah. and how do i know this? he fulfilled 318 prophesies that were written about him in the old testament.(and yes, it has been studied and there is very little doubt that the old testament was written before he ever showed up) so, if the old testament can predict 318 life happenings of someone that is going to live a couple hundred years later. i'm gonna put my money down that it knows what its talkin about when it says that god created everything down here. so, to answer our question, yes, our ignorance will be enduring simply becuase there will always be people trying to prove what is right, wrong. they will find a little evidence, but never can you prove that we just came to be by a freak accident.[This message has been edited by biglfty, 05-23-2003][This message has been edited by biglfty, 05-23-2003]

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o, and by the way, as i said earlier the law has changed since old and new testaments, show me anywhere in the new testament where god commanded people to kill and then you win.

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Tell you what. You rip the OT out of your Bible and I'll believe that this position is more than an ill thought out posture. See. So long as you are reading the OT, quoting from it, and taking guidance; it is pretty hard to take your statement seriously. It tells me that you are selectively mining the OT for quotes you like, while whining about portions you don't like. And who are you to decide what you like and don't? Right? God tells you what you like, right there in the Bible. How is it that you get to be editor and censor?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This is not the criteria for belief in intelligent design theory.This is criteria for belief in creationist theory. The gulf between the two in methodology is vast, even if ID supports a claim that a god may have existed.Nice way to avoid my earlier post to continue saying something which simply is not true. You have no belief in ID theory at all. Or if you do, please explain what plank of ID theory (besides it's conclusion) you find acceptable, especially as it states portions if not all of evolutionary theory may be correct. Also, ID theory totally rejects YE theory which is part of the Bible (and by the way is historically INaccurate).------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 05-23-2003]

Hrm, did he? Or was the New Testament merely edited after the fact (not too hard considering it was written at least a generation after these events are said to have occured) to make it look like he did?Did you consider that possibility? And now that it has been presented to you, perhaps you see that you don't have faith in god at all - you have faith in a book. And what about a book would be worthy of your faith? I'm just asking.Also did you consider the possibility of Thesitic, god-directed evolution? Lots of people believe in that, but I don't, personally.

1) belief in god is criteria for intelligent design. it says that we were carefully created by god.
2) "God tells you what you like, right there in the Bible. How is it that you get to be editor and censor?" the old testament is an account of events of what happened and prophesies of the messiah. when jesus came he contradicted a lot of old testament, so yes, the old testament is true, but it is not what we are held accountable to today.
3)there is really no reason to believe the new testament was doctored. it was written by many people, who werent neccasarily together when they wrote it. yet, the different books say the same thing(obviously with a bit of difference from one viewpoint to another)

Not neccisarily. That's biblical creationism, not intelligent design. Intelligent design just says life one earth was intelligently created, maybe by aliens, maybe by a god, maybe by humans from the future, maybe some other way. It doesn't specify anything about the nature of the designer. And yet, edited and copied by innumerable, nameless persons. We don't have anything approaching the originals. There's considerable advantage to be gained for a group or person in a position to alter the bible. Also, the books don't say the same thing - Brian Johnson could fill us in more on that and I hope he will.So, really, there's no reason to believe they weren't altered. We can't ever know because we don't have the originals.