Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9077 total)
619 online now:
Aussie, AZPaul3, PaulK, Phat (4 members, 615 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,035 Year: 5,147/6,534 Month: 567/794 Week: 58/135 Day: 4/6 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why only one Designer
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 377 (612213)
04-13-2011 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
04-13-2011 1:28 PM


At least two sides in an arms race.
Taq writes:

IMHO, assuming that ID is true for the moment, the nested hierarchy screams multiple designers.

What we would see as the evolutionary arms race would also be very strong evidence for a minimum of two designers. The attack and defense mechanisms are often highly complex, and only designers in competition would go to such lengths.

Taq writes:

Either that, or a single designer that slightly modifies pre-existing species and then suffers amnesia after designing the new species.

Your "amnesia" hypothesis could cover the evidence, I suppose. The designer keeps forgetting which side of the arms race he's on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 04-13-2011 1:28 PM Taq has taken no action

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 136 of 377 (612568)
04-17-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by SavageD
04-16-2011 1:48 PM


Re: common design
SavageD writes:

Well If you take it from the view of similar design, it would probably make sense.

Example: if were to start my own line of designer clothes, for each garment I make I would probably leave my signature on it to symbolize that the garment was fashioned by me. It would then be natural to think that there was probably one designer or one mind behind the design upon seeing my signature left on my product.

It would? Would I assume that the fashion house whose products bear the SavageD logo only employs one designer? And would I assume that someone, perhaps called D Savage, was the original inventor/designer of all shirts, dresses and skirts, rather than being a modifier of designs made by others? Would anyone assume all this?

SavageD writes:

Similarly every living thing contains some sort of signature (eg. dna). Why does every living thing require dna, why not some other mechanism for information? Probably evidence for common design.

DNA is a working part of the organisms that contain it, not an arbitrary sign intended for observers like the trademark logo that you choose to put on your clothes. If the logo is accidentally left off a batch of dresses leaving your factory, they are none the worse for it. Leave DNA out of a life form and you would have to substitute another self-replicating molecule. Designers could easily do this, but with naturalistic common descent, it would be difficult. Hence the uniformity.

It's fine to illustrate arguments by analogy, but there's no single sign we know of in all organisms that's analogous to the SavageD trademark on your clothes. The identification signals that organisms do use to communicate with others are the nearest thing in a way, but these are many and varied. They use a whole variety of species specific chemical signals, sounds and visual displays as signs. Going by your argument, each species would have separate "trademarks", and therefore separate designers.

SavageD writes:

The biological system also exhibits an intricate system (ecosystem).

plants depend on insects & animals
animals depend on insects & plants
insects depend on animals & plants

Every-things intertwined, if you remove one of these, the entire ecosystem falls apart. This would then be evidence for a common designer since there was probably common thought used in designing the system.

That's the funniest version of the "irreducibly complex" argument I've ever read (and I've read a few that make me laugh). Thanks for it. It could be very useful in explaining what's wrong with the concept when people apply it in other areas.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by SavageD, posted 04-16-2011 1:48 PM SavageD has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022