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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 493 of 1034 (758041)
05-18-2015 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Faith
05-18-2015 7:51 PM


Re: Moderator Introduced Definitions
And what are those differential rates of mutation?
The rates of mutation should be equal across the genome. What differs is whether those mutations accumulate in a given section of DNA. If a section of DNA has function, then there has to be a chance of a deleterious mutation happening in that stretch of DNA. These mutations will be selected against. When we compare genomes, these regions will show up as having more bases in common than in junk DNA where there is no function so no possibility of deleterious mutations.

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 Message 485 by Faith, posted 05-18-2015 7:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Faith, posted 05-18-2015 9:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 494 of 1034 (758042)
05-18-2015 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Faith
05-18-2015 9:03 PM


Re: Pseudogenes
The Wikipedia article on Pseudogenes describes very well what I have in mind except for the parts about how it may have a function, which I doubt:
What you would need to explain is why psuedogenes share sequence homology with functional genes in other species.
And here it goes into evolutionist interpretations I don't share.
What evidence do you have that would refute that interpretation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Faith, posted 05-18-2015 9:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 05-18-2015 9:50 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 496 of 1034 (758044)
05-18-2015 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
05-18-2015 9:50 PM


Re: Pseudogenes
Most creatures share design features in common, one creature happens to lose a gene to junk DNA that remains alive in another.
If that function were important, then the loss of that gene would reduce the fitness of that individual. Those with the mutation that knocked out the gene would be outcompeted by individuals with the functional allele. This would eliminate the pseudogene from the population.
It would seem to me that pseudogenes occur when there is a lack of negative selection against mutations in a gene, meaning that the function isn't needed in that gene.
Same evidence evolution has for its interpretation: None, or really, same facts, different interpretation. It's an interpretation.
How does your interpretation match up better with the evidence than the evolutionary interpretation?

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 Message 495 by Faith, posted 05-18-2015 9:50 PM Faith has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 498 of 1034 (758049)
05-18-2015 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by Faith
05-18-2015 9:55 PM


Re: Moderator Introduced Definitions
Is there evidence for this? It just sounds like another unevidenced evolutionist assumption.
Every time a child dies of hemophilia without passing on that defective gene, it is evidenced. Every time a person dies in their early 20's from Duchenne muscular dystrophy without passing on the gene, it is evidenced. There are tons of examples.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 630 of 1034 (758472)
05-26-2015 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by herebedragons
05-19-2015 12:13 PM


Re: Moderator Introduced Definitions
I disagree that "junk DNA" is a perfect term. It is not specific enough. I will withdraw the statement that the majority has a "function," function has implications that I don't really mean, and which depends on what is meant by "function." For example, does spacer DNA have a function? Is it a "selectable function?" Maybe not, but could it just be clipped out? Probably not, separation of genes does affect expression and having two genes back to back may cause problems with transcription. Is that a function?
If the space were important then we would see selection against indel events that would be detectable.
At the same time, that is a rather rudimentary function akin to vestigial organs or the actual junk in your kitchen.
I think it is more appropriate to refer to it as "non-coding DNA" and then to refer to specific types of non-coding DNA. You would never say "I sequenced a region of junk DNA..."
The descriptor "junk" gives us additional information, that the stretch of DNA in question shows no signs of positive or negative selection. This is not true of all non-coding DNA. Also, you no more sequence non-coding DNA than you sequence junk DNA. You sequence DNA. Period. Only afterwards can you determine if a specific stretch of DNA is coding, non-coding, regulatory, junk, etc.
Sure, but why haven't all species done that? If there wasn't some evolutionary constraint acting to preserve these non-coding sequences all genomes should be minimized. The tremendous amount of resources that must go into maintaining >50% of our genome that is simply disposable should experience significant negative selection.
DNA takes a tremendous amount of resources? Since when? I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ATP turnover in one muscle cell from one contraction was equal to all of the ATP turnover needed to replicate the genome of that cell. The problem for the bladderwort was the availability of phosphates to make the ATP, not the energy needed to replicate the genome.
I just think it is too generalized and unspecific and gives a false impression of what it represents. Non-coding DNA is better. Reference to more specific types of non-coding sequences is even better.
Junk DNA and regulatory DNA are both non-coding DNA, and they are very different from each other.
In the context of this discussion, there is not 95% of the human genome that is "dead genes." That is one example of how the term "junk DNA" is misleading.
As the bladderwort genome shows, 90% of our genome may be disposible, just like the trash in your kitchen.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Denisova, posted 05-26-2015 7:05 PM Taq has replied
 Message 652 by caffeine, posted 05-28-2015 4:15 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 653 of 1034 (758586)
05-28-2015 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by Denisova
05-26-2015 7:05 PM


Re: Moderator Introduced Definitions
Are indels only affecting spacer DNA then?
No they don't.
When an indel affects the spacer DNA, causing troubles in transciption of the adjacent genes, would this bring deleterious effects and thus would it be trigger selective effects?
Most likely it would.
Then why don't we see evidence of selection against indels in those sections of DNA?
But STILL the fact stands that 70% of our DNA is transcribed. And transcription costs energy. Especially when it happens all the time in all of the organism's cells.
How much energy? What portion of a the body's energy is spent on very low level transcription of junk DNA? What harm would be caused by RNA transcriptase that was too stringent and failed to transcribe important genes?
IOW, there is a balance between energy and and a somewhat sloppy RNA transcriptase that can more reliably transcribe important genes. If you make RNA transcriptase so selective that it no longer transcribes junk DNA it may not reliably bind to promoters upstream of the genes that you really do want transcribed.
Moreover, most proteins are, often extremely, redundant. For instance, cytochrome C consists of a chain of about 100-104 amino acids. As a consequence, it has been shown that the human cytochrome C protein works in yeast (a unicellular organism) that had its own native cytochrome C gene deleted, even though yeast cytochrome C differs from human cytochrome C over 40% of the protein. Furthermore, extensive genetic analysis of cytochrome C has demonstrated that the majority of the protein sequence is unnecessary for its function in vivo. Only about a third of the 100 amino acids in cytochrome C are necessary to specify its function. Most of the amino acids in cytochrome C are therefore also hypervariable.
Not really the same thing. There are still harmful mutations that can happen in cytC.
Being transcribed is not the same as having function.

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 Message 633 by Denisova, posted 05-26-2015 7:05 PM Denisova has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Denisova, posted 05-29-2015 6:45 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 654 of 1034 (758587)
05-28-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by caffeine
05-28-2015 4:15 PM


Re: Moderator Introduced Definitions
But the problem is that it is not clear any such thing exists.
The tests for negative and positive selection do exist, as do results from those tests. In those results. non-coding DNA is split into categories, one of which is junk DNA.
I agree that those tests are not 100% accurate, but this doesn't change the fact that junk DNA is a subcategory of non-coding DNA, and therefore adds more specificity for what you are talking about.
I lack the expertise to assess the maths behind their claims, but if they're right then we can see detectable evidence of negative selection against changes in non-coding DNA.
They detected negative selection in the several classes of noncoding DNA that they looked at in the D. simulans genome. They aren't making claims about all noncoding DNA in all species. They didn't even make the claim that all noncoding DNA in D. simulans showed signs of negative selection.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 660 of 1034 (758617)
05-29-2015 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Denisova
05-29-2015 6:45 AM


Re: Moderator Introduced Definitions
Why should we?
If the spaces between genes are important then mutations that change those spaces should be harmful part of the time and be selected against.
And what made you conclude that we don't see evidence of selection against indels?
We do see evidence of negative selection against indels, but only in 10% of the genome.
An indel that impairs the spacer would be detected by the adjacent genes not being transcribed properly.
If that were the case throughout the genome, shouldn't we see selection against indels in 100% of the genome?
I think that accounts for notable amounts of energy consumption. And notable it is when a reduction of this consumption, without any functional consequences, would retain energy for other purposes.
Both of those are empty assertions.
Why do you call it "low level" transcription? If you meant transcription with a low biological signal, OK with me, but transcription of junk DNA costs as much energy as transcription of functional DNA, how "low level" it might be.
In this context, low level transcription refers to the number of copies of any given RNA transcript. For the junk DNA that ENCODE found mRNA copies for, the number of copies were several orders of magnitude lower than commonly transcribed genes such as B-actin. In fact, these areas had so few copies that they had to use special techniques to detect them.
If you want to make the argument that the observed rate of junk DNA transcription is energetically expensive then you need to have a handle on the number of RNA copies and bases per copy since the energy is spent making the nucleotides and linking them with phosphates.
But, even still then, energy is lost by transcribing junk DNA.
What matters is the amount of energy that is expended transcribing junk DNA. If it is just 1% of the energy compared to transcribing functional genes then it isn't a problem.
Of course, in the one-third part of it that specifies its function.
Still leaving two-third of it completely redundant and only copied for the cat's violin.
When comparing orhtologous cytC genes between species these would show up as regions of conservation. When those are found within an open reading frame, it indicates function. Junk DNA has none of these features. It doesn't have regions that are highly conserved between species. It doesn't have open reading frames that have upstream ribosome binding sites, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Denisova, posted 05-29-2015 6:45 AM Denisova has replied

Replies to this message:
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