Bible and Plagiarism

I believe it is important to not blindly follow a source proven to be false. There are many reasons this happens. This is very easy to happen with religion because religion is subjective. My truth may not be your truth, my experience may not be your experience, and so on.My subjective experience has been that it is very easy to accept something when you are raised in an environment when said thing is accepted as truth. When, from birth, your entire community (family, friends, teachers, co-workers, etc) live with the assurance that what they believe is true, it's very easy to think "well of course it's true! Everyone I know believes it." But is it?There are many things i have questioned over the years, things which I was taught as truth my entire upbringing, but upon further review aren't exactly what they seem, and that has been an incredible growth experience.When it comes to the Bible however, it's a strange sort of organism. Within the book are certain claims and statements. God exists. He became human. He died so we can have new life. Stop worrying about stress in your life, and trust him with it, and he'll work it out. Stuff like that. And along with these claims, it speaks on faith. That faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things which have not yet been seen. (Hebrews 11).So was the Bible, or even portions of the Bible plagiarized? I don't know. Considering the evidence, I'd say it's 50/50. But what is faith? Believing something without a 100% guarantee is a hard thing to do. To trust? To look stupid, at the end of all things? So many risks. But what is faith?Even Paul brings this up in 1 Corinthians 15. He makes the argument that if Christ has not risen (something He was an actual witness to on the road to Damascus), then everything will have been in vain. Worthless. Haha it's like he's saying "bro this stuff better be true!" So it's hard. But what is faith?Regards yall! - Raph

Sure, I could agree with that. Faith does not require evidence to facilitate belief.The main difference between the Bible and the idea that fairies exist is what I mentioned previously. The Bible makes certain claims and statements, that in all honestly, are outrageous. A historical character named Jesus claims TO BE the YHWH of the Jewish Torah? He not only claims to be that same GOD, but outlines a narrative that goes beyond this life? He prophesies his own death and "resurrection" before it happens? Merely believe it's true and live forever? Crazy stuff.What it really comes down to is what will you choose to put your trust in? What do you have that gives you hope? For me, my personal experience has corroborated the claims made in that book. Maybe that's not your experience, and that's okay dude. So. What will you put your trust in? Fairies, or someone who offers more than anything you could ever imagine? But fairies do that too right? haha.- RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Sure dude! Sorry about that. "personal experience" is a vague term religious people use all the time but never really explain what it means. Here's an example.When I was 18, I went to a private University. Right before the second semester of my Freshman year began, my dad was fired, effectively cutting off my financial stability and resulted in incurring a debt of some $7,000 or so. My problem arose when I tried to transfer Universities; they would not transfer my transcript until that balance was paid. I did not have $7,000. Nobody in my family had it (my parents live a moderately lower-middle class lifestyle). It was just not going to happen. All my life, I was taught that there is a personal God who cares about my life, even the financial details. Verses like Phil. 4:19 came to mind, which states that God will supply all our needs. There are others as well. So I called God out on it, praying that he would supply for me. nothing happened. Weeks passed. I decided, on the council of a friend, to just call the University and ask them to straight-up forgive my debt. So I did, and, incredibly, they decided to not require me to pay the debt that had incurred since I left the university (around $600), so the balance was reduced to around $6,400. There's God . But it wasn't over. I entered the other University. They let me in on the condition that I would have to supply my transcript within a few months. I kept praying. kept calling God out on the fact that in His supposed "Word" he promises to provide, if we merely test him! (Malachi 3:10). Kept praying. It came straight to the day where I needed the money or they wouldn't let me stay at University. It seemed like God actually did not care, and does not answer prayer. But I have good friends, who encouraged me to keep praying. So I did. One day word came from my church that there was a hidden fund that only 2 PEOPLE in the church had known about, but never remembered (they are 65+) that held a balance of $10,000, and they would donate whatever I needed to continue my education. In order to understand why thats a big deal you need to know that my church at the time was made up of about 13 retired, poor, older women (Most 65+, a few 75+). That's what I mean when I say "personal experience." That's merely one story, I could go on for hours haha. Stuff like that has become normal. Kind of a long-winded guy . But does that make sense? In the Bible God makes claims. He says to just test him (Mal. 3:10) and He will reveal himself. It's hard sometimes, honestly, because faith isn't easy. It sucks sometimes. But God has proven himself, over and over again for me. Haha dude I can agree with that. The ladies are enticing. But sure, faith can mean trust or unfounded belief. But both work for this illustration. This is, at the beginning, and unfounded belief. But as time goes on, in my subjective experience, God has proven himself, changing this unfounded belief into a confirmed belief, over and over and over again. Sure. Most of that's fair. I stated that Jesus is a historical character, assuming it was true, begging my own question. I apologize. But that is not essential to my argument my friend.The writers of the New Testament wrote about the character Jesus (after his death) in the same way that your friends would write about you after your death. Do they need sources? Peer reviews? confirmation? Not really, they're just writing about what you did so we can know who you were what you were about. How would anyone prove you existed in a couple thousand years when all we have are some preserved pieces of a Word document talking about the stuff you did, and how you impacted people? We couldn't, and that's the point,.Regardless of whether or not Jesus is proven to be a historical character actually doesn't matter, because the claims he makes and questions he asks do not require that you have proof. What it really comes down to is the Bible makes claims, asking the reader to trust its validity based on personal experience. You can go any which way with intellectualism and evidence, but Christ does not ask you to check his sources before belief, merely believe. He lives to ask the question: What will you do with me and my claims?Nice to see you, jar - RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.

They would definitely need additional external confirmation. But that's my point, and, ironically, the hardest part of Jesus' message. He does not offer you additional evidence, he merely says "believe", and when he reveals himself in your life, activated by belief, that is what acts as additional evidence. Specific to you, impossible to prove, but evidence. Sure, Christianity has used those overused, orthodox-inspired ideas to sell itself. That's humanity. But this isn't about Christianity, this is about Jesus. What did he actually do? He taught the scriptures in the synagogue. He gathered a group of followers. He taught a higher moral standard than the religious people of the time lived out.(Matt 5-6) And he egotistically claimed that He was the only way to the kingdom. That anyone who heard his words merely needs to believe him, and they will live forever.Which is hard right? He doesn't say "considering the proof, and the additional evidence accompanying my words, you can trust me," he says "blessed are those who believe without seeing me" (John 20:29). Trusting somebody with nothing besides their word to lean on is hard. So is it a way of marketing Christianity? Or is it more of a journey, corroborated by the thousands of people whose lives have been changed. I fear you bring a pre-cultivated anathema to them, my friend. Not judging, just honest concern. Your questions do not appear to come from an objective, open-mindedness, but instead from an "unanswered questions" kind of mentality. Jesus claimed to be God. That is important, for a man to claim to be God is stupidity or insanity, if untrue. His followers claimed he resurrected. That is important because it is impossible, and because he promises the same to us; giving us hope beyond this short life. His followers also claimed he ascended. That is important because of what he claimed: he is going to prepare a place for us, one which we do not deserve, but he is giving to us simply because that is who he is. That is the important message to be found, and it's one to rejoice about! The topic is "Bible and Plagiarism." I believe this is very on topic, because the Bible ignores the fact that it could have been plagiarised. It simply speaks straight to our doubts, asking belief, promising confirmation. So the question remains: What will we do with this Jesus and his claims?- Raph

That's fair. So, if I'm getting what you're saying, your conditions for understanding are:#1. A direct correlation between the prayer/faith and intervention
#2. A Way to show it must have been divine
#3. Some way to show what God it was. How do I know the God of the Christian Bible is the one answering my prayers?I do not sense any sort of biting intention my friend, so all good . Let me address each of your conditions:#1. This was kind of illustrated in my earlier story, but maybe it wasn't the best example. This one is an integral part of faith: How do I know that my prayer is being answered and it is not merely human kindness (in the earlier story) or coincidence. In order to do this, I have to tell another story haha. I am a Christian.I'm generally a poor person. Bills are frequent, and supporting yourself in college is quite the experience in money management. (There are non-financial examples, but I find that monetary ones are the easiest to understand.) So. A couple years ago there was a situation in which I didn't have enough money to pay my phone bill. It was $100. Way expensive, I know, At&t doesn't really like me . At this time, my experience with God was that he answers prayers, so again, I called God out. He said "do not be anxious about your life, what you eat, drink, wear, etc" (Matt. 6:25). I would basically include "phone bill" in with those other necessities, so I assumed God cares even about my overpriced phone bill. It came literally down to the day, and At&t took the money from my account. I had $0 in my checking account. I was $-100, but still praying, expecting that God would do something. I lived in the University dormitory at the time, so I decided to check my mailbox. Turns out I had received a letter from my great-grandmother that very day, who lives in Canada. I open it, it contained a single american $100.00 bill, without a note. This great-grandmother NEVER sends me cash, let alone american cash, without a note. The mere fact that she sent me cash was a miracle, not to mention it was in US currency, and arrived on the exact day I needed it. Stuff like that may just be coincidence, but when Jesus says "don't worry about your everyday needs, I got your back" and a coincidence like that happens, it's a confirmation.#2. In the example above, the proof is in the situation. But it's more of a principle thing. Before exercising our faith, there is no way to guarantee that it will be divine, and when confirmation happens, there is also no blaring sign which says "THIS IS DIVINE." That's why it's faith. It does not require a way to prove it is divine, but confirmation in and of itself, is.#3. The basic principle, again, is I cannot empirically prove that it was the Christian God who answered my prayers, but his confirmations to my faith in real life aline with both his character (revealed in the Bible) and examples in the Bible. Perhaps if I knew the Quran well, and prayed to Allah and he answered consistently, aligning with the experiences of millions of other people corroborated by the character of Allah shown in the Quran, I would believe it was Allah. Therefore, if this God (not necessarily the "Christian God," per se, but the one spoken of in the Bible) exists, we must look at his other claims. That there are no other Gods. Kinda see how that makes sense?Regards!- Raph

Apologies for the late response! As you probably picked up I'm still a student and my quarter just began today so it is crazy haha. True, and valid point. I suppose then it becomes a content issue. I have not read through the entire Quran, but from what I have read, there are some textual variances between it and the Bible. My point being, when Christians (for the most part) think of a God, they tend think of him in a certain way, and the same is true of Islam. Which is correct? Personally I don't believe either is; there is no way humans can comprehend how a transcendental being works, 100%.All this to say that sure, Allah makes similar promises in the Quran, but if you understand the main differences between Allah and the "Christian" God (YWHW, Jehovah, Jesus), you realize that they are not the same God, at least ideologically. Haha that's a great point. To be perfectly honest, I didn't really think about doing that; I'm not much in contact with her and as I mentioned earlier, for her to send me anything is pretty unusual. So much so that I haven't received anything from her since that time, and that was almost 3 years ago.Probably the real reason is my main point here: I just trust God to provide for me, regardless of where it comes from. And I don't mean to sound like a holy person by saying that or something, God is just good to the point where I don't need to worry about figuring that stuff out. He has it taken care of. When I said "not the Christian God per se" I meant the idea of God Christianity tries to sell. Rather, the character of God and Christ found directly from scripture. As previously mentioned, even though technically the three Abrahamic religions worship the same god, ideologically (at the least from the standpoint of the people in those religions) they are very different. If they were not, every Muslim would be a Christian and every Christian would be a Jew. He claims there is no other God (Isaiah 46). There's one. By looking at his other claims, we can kind of answer some of your other questions. How do we know what God answers prayers? Well this God says he is the only one, none others exist. Kinda make sense? Of course. Which illustrates the fact that at the end of the day, everybody has their own religious experience. What im not trying to do is say "I have the truth, I'm right, and you need to believe like me." You don't need to believe like me. All I'm doing is giving my experience, and challenging us to look at Jesus for ourselves, dropping pre conceived notions and opinions (and I will do the same).For me, God has drastically changed my life now, in real time, and continues to do so every day. Jesus offers a hope and a future bigger than what's inside our realm of possibility, shattering every worldview. He promises peace where there is none, rest where there is none, and hope beyond our pain now. That's what I cling to, and what I find hope in. What do you find hope in?Because, honestly, at the end of the day you can find evidence for or against anything. There are so many believers today for that reason: They have chosen to believe. The same can be said for non believers (not meaning to make that sound derogatory or less value). You have chosen not to believe, and therefore find reasons not to. That's why there are so many non believers. So at the end of the day we have to ask ourselves the question, and be honest with ourselves: What will I choose to believe? And if it sits well with you, more power to you! I don't need to argue about that. So it's chill The earth was once thought to be flat. That was proven to be false.
Bloodletting was once a prominent medical practice, but its benefits were proven to be false.That's what I mean. There are many things I was taught growing up that are simply not true, and I had to come to terms with that, and to be honest, stuff like that shakes your worldview. But it's besides the point, because Jesus is not a "proven to be false" issue. He simply says "believe," speaking past our doubts and even contrary evidence.Regards!- RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Right! Well I think we agree here. Meaning, they try not to represent him in any one way because they have a different concep t of him than Christians or Jews. So much so that to them, the concept of the Christian God does not exist, only Allah. Sure. There are other religions and spiritual perspectives where the deity worshipped claims to be the only one. But what I'm getting at is that this God says he is the only one. Is it true? To be honest there's no way I can know. Maybe there are others out there. But based on my personal experience, he has affirmed his existence, effectively affirming his claims that he is the only one. In simpler terms, He claims he will do certain things. When he actually does them, in real life (speaking on faith right now, not miraculous signs) he confirms both his existence and the things he says in other places to be true. God is a god of his word. I think it's partly to do with my upbringing. Or maybe even mostly. If I had been born a Mormon, or a Buddhist, perhaps it would be Joseph Smith or the Buddha. Why Jesus? Because that's where my experience lies. And because of the claims Jesus makes. He says he is the way. The truth. The life. (John 14:6). "The truth?" If Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life that means there is no other way. I think Christianity is famous for using that simple fact as a heavy-handed weapon of conversion, or even to guilt-trip people into belief. I can admit that. But all those things aside, his words still stand. That's commendable stuff. I can respect that. Something I love about humanity are the moments we come together on a central issue for the better. I think the opposite is also true though. Humanity has the same issues it's always had. Selfishness. Hatred. Deception. It's everywhere. What I love about Jesus is he brings us together under himself in equality. He lives and died to promise more than this life. We all have our stories, brokenness unique to us and the ones we love. He promises healing and a better life right now, and guarantees full restoration into what we were originally created to be.What Christianity likes to do is create little "but you have to's" and requirements you need to fulfill before you're able to experience this assurance. (Romans 8) Jesus doesn't mention an act you need to do or or a building you need to attend or even a prayer you need to pray. He says just believe it's true, and it's yours. Well of course Evolution has evidence against it: Creation . Haha. Not trying to get into that conversation. But I mean that in the same way that nowadays there are many positions for or against basically everything. With Evolution, for example, if there was not an opposite position this website would not exist. Take coffee (or even just coffee beans) for instance. You can go online and probably find a plethora of articles on the benefits, and probably the same amount of articles on the horrible negatives. My point? There is value in both sides. To throw out the negatives (one side) completely because the evidence you've picked to coincide with the decision you made to trust the positives (the other side) would be pretty absurd (no offense at all intended). The same could be said for many things. Automobiles. Social Networking. Am i making sense? Right. No I actually think we're on the same page here. I would also hate having to think something without some reason to think it. That's something shared by all of us I think. My point is there are reasons for both sides of any belief, that's why there are two sides. Belief in a God is a great example, because of the millions of people who have found, and still find, hope, peace, strength and purpose in what he promises. To them, this is not just "12 Benefits of Drinking Coffee" but something so true that they would consider their lives worthless compared to the belief, and many gave up their lives. For something they had no reason to believe in? Thousands dying for a cause they knew was a lie? Doesn't make much sense to me. But that's me I think it totally would. But that's the point, and the hardest part about this whole thing. There is evidence which tries to prove he did. And there is counter evidence arguing the opposite. Until we prove one way or the other, it's a matter of choice. So the hard question comes right back around for us. Considering his claims, what will we choose? Regards!- Raph

Haha. Sure, I suppose it could be considered a weak argument. But that's the difficult part which we all need to wrestle with: Who affirms your faith? If, for instance, you were a Muslim, does your subjective experience affirm that Allah exists? What are the things which do so? If it does, then more power to you! I agree with that. The world is going awesome places, and changing in many positive ways. I don't think Christianity opposes this view, rather embraces these positive changes. What Christianity does do is state that the problem here is not someone else, but me, and that I need to check my own heart, my own motives, and realize that we are all in this thing called humanity together. Once the problem becomes us, we can recognize that since much grace, love, hope, and kindness has been shown to us through Jesus, we can do the same here, now, spurring us onward together to do the same to our world, all the while recognizing that nobody is better than anyone else. We're all in this together dude! Haha. I think you're on the right track, but that's actually not what I'm getting at at all. Religion is mostly oppressive, traditional, and guilt-inducing. Religion creates a culture of pretending. Religion begins with good intentions but ends up becoming self-centered because the nature of humanity is self-centered. But Jesus is a little different. Jesus taught us to love those who oppress us. Love those whom we would consider enemies. To do more than is required, to actually sacrifice so that others may benefit, always looking at the other person before ourselves. And Jesus said that as long as those things are a priority, we would all be a part of a place where the things we all hate don't exist. It's ours. Those are the things I cling to. That's for you to decide Nobody can make that decision for you. Or me for that matter. But, considering the reasons, are they valid? Something I realized is we literally have nothing to lose by believing. If there is no God, hey, at least we loved some people right? And if there is, well, what he promises us is more incredible than we can imagine. But there definitely is Regards!- Raph