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Author Topic:   Black Holes Don't Exist
1.61803
Member (Idle past 732 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 16 of 174 (739982)
10-30-2014 12:27 PM


Am I missing something? Black ho's do exist.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 17 of 174 (740016)
10-30-2014 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Son Goku
10-30-2014 7:38 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Their theories are restricted by their definition and conclusions about the nature of matter and its existence.
They try to find a model of matter that has no greater contexts than itself, ie, it is self existent.
Now while nature displays such an economy that it seems like it is existing by itself, it is dependent on greater contexts of energy than itself.
There is a lot more to what we see, in that which cannot be seen.
If you put matter into the context of a supporting power or background of forces then, you don't have to try and make its own functions account for its behaviors.

But because we have not discovered these background forces, we rely on making up extreme situations like black holes to balance out the expectations.

So black holes are 'necessary' but not necessarily there to create the missing parts of the puzzle.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Son Goku, posted 10-30-2014 7:38 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Son Goku, posted 10-31-2014 6:30 AM Colbard has replied

  
Son Goku
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Posts: 1207
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 18 of 174 (740041)
10-31-2014 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Colbard
10-30-2014 8:14 PM


Re: Black Holed theory
Their theories are restricted by their definition and conclusions about the nature of matter and its existence.
They try to find a model of matter that has no greater contexts than itself, ie, it is self existent.
Now while nature displays such an economy that it seems like it is existing by itself, it is dependent on greater contexts of energy than itself.

Everything you have said here is roughly correct. Current models of physics model matter as containing all the information necessary to understand its own development over time. For example to know how a ball falls, I need only information on the ball's mass, position, speed and the average drag in the air. Nothing completely external to the ball and the air atoms it is in contact with are needed.
This is a restriction as you said in the sense that more general ideas might include other influences. So sure.

Although I will say in modern physics, spacetime itself is also dynamic and evolving and influences matter, so matter is not totally self-determined.

There is a lot more to what we see, in that which cannot be seen.

I'm sure there are more things left to find, yes.

If you put matter into the context of a supporting power or background of forces then, you don't have to try and make its own functions account for its behaviors.

Again, yes. Almost by definition, if matter's behavior is not totally determined by itself, then it won't have to completely account for its own behaviour. Fine.

But because we have not discovered these background forces, we rely on making up extreme situations like black holes to balance out the expectations.

No. This is simply wild speculation on your part. You are essentially saying:
Scientists don't everything, and ignore something external to matter (wink,wink,nudge,nudge, I mean God or the supernatural), but if they did, some things I find weird and unlikely would not be part of their theories.

You see, black holes were not just "made up". Somebody didn't one day say "Hey we need an object that behaves like.......".
General Relativity, the theory of gravity the any GPS system on the planet uses, the one that describes Mercury's orbit with perfect precision, that describes the strange angular momentum objects pick up near the Earth (known as frame dragging), this theory predicts black holes.

They were not "made up" but discovered as a prediction of General Relativity, which seems to be completely correct in its description of gravity so far, extremely so.

Can you give concrete reasons as to why you think General Relativity would be correct about the orbits of planets, the bending of light, frame-dragging, but it would be false in this case. What is it that the theory assumes, that invalidates black holes, but does not affect its other predictions?

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:14 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Colbard, posted 10-31-2014 9:47 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 19 of 174 (740047)
10-31-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Son Goku
10-31-2014 6:30 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Son Goku writes:

Can you give concrete reasons as to why you think General Relativity would (not?) be correct about the orbits of planets, the bending of light, frame-dragging, but suddenly false in this case. What is it that the theory assumes, that invalidates black holes, but does not affect its other predictions?

I am pleasantly surprised that you have given the majority of my points credit, normally I would get the "you're delusional" lecture.

Personally I have never believed in GR, SR etc, because they are without any greater context. But the effects of space time bending are real and rightly predicted as well as observed.

My Q is what causes space time bending?

We associate mass and gravity, and a space time bend, but I do not believe they are caused by each other, rather that all of these are caused by a difference in the state of the background force which also helps to make up and produce matter and all the other factors mentioned.
Not just matter, but anti matter and dark matter as well.

It is slowly dawning on some scientists that the universe has much more power behind it than revealed in matter, and that matter is only a small expression compared to that energy. So rather than seeing the universe as empty space with a few stars, it is actually full of energy or elements of some type, and the stars are the lower points of energy in that fabric.

So we can conclude that matter is a result of energy which has settled down.
That settled down state causes a difference with its highly energized environment in the universe.

If we accept that experimentally, then we can see stars not needing to derive their energy from wood, candles, electricity or atomic explosions, or whatever is used as an energy source for man in the future, but simply from the difference in the state of power between matter and the rest of the universe, which is what energy is, a difference which calls for an action to equalize.

It's like putting a frozen potato chip into hot oil, there is a reaction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Son Goku, posted 10-31-2014 6:30 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Son Goku, posted 10-31-2014 9:56 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 58 by Son Goku, posted 11-13-2014 10:37 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 64 by Larni, posted 11-14-2014 4:57 AM Colbard has replied

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1207
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 20 of 174 (740051)
10-31-2014 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Colbard
10-31-2014 9:47 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Personally I have never believed in GR, SR etc, because they are without any greater context. But the effects of space time bending are real and rightly predicted as well as observed.

This is interesting. You believe that spacetime does bend and that this effect is real, but you do not believe in GR? Do you mean you do not believe it is the whole story or something else?
(If that is the case, well GR itself doesn't claim to be the whole story and certainly isn't the whole story, so nothing is wrong here)

The rest of your post is closer to modern physics than you think. It will take me a little while to compose a response if you don't mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Colbard, posted 10-31-2014 9:47 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Colbard, posted 11-05-2014 6:23 AM Son Goku has taken no action

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 21 of 174 (740434)
11-05-2014 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son Goku
10-31-2014 9:56 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
I have never believed in the black hole theory either, but I understand why it was predicted, and even now while some are saying that BH's should not exist, I still believe they were justified in seeking them, and that the properties of a BH could be present in another form.
Say for instance that the space time properties of matter, are completely changed in a BH, this itself tells us that the BH cannot be in a particular location in either space or time, relative to our universe, and that its perimeters or place of contact with our space time may be indeterminable.

if that is the case then it does not have to be in a particular location, and could well be everywhere at once, say like a background to all molecules which has locations of high intensity and low intensity depending on the number of molecules and perhaps its own distribution.

So that if there are many stars in a galaxy center, the mass of the stars may not be enough to create the gravity necessary to hold the galaxy together, but the number of stars may indicate an excess or bias in the background force.

Instead of calling it a black hole we could simply say that it is the missing part in between each quantum -(package of energy) say "Black Energy".

But once again it is assuming to have a particular location, where as if it was truly in another space time condition, then it does not have to be intense in one area or another, but each star would simply respond to whatever it is commanded, with no explanation or evidence why it behaves differently.

Edited by Colbard, : Add


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son Goku, posted 10-31-2014 9:56 AM Son Goku has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 11-05-2014 7:20 PM Colbard has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2520 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 174 (740564)
11-05-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Colbard
11-05-2014 6:23 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
I'm missing something here. How is any of this of relevance when the universe is only 6 thousand years old and the rapture is about to happen anytime now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Colbard, posted 11-05-2014 6:23 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Colbard, posted 11-07-2014 6:29 AM Taz has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 23 of 174 (740728)
11-07-2014 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
11-05-2014 7:20 PM


Re: Black Holed theory
Taz writes:

I'm missing something here. How is any of this of relevant when the universe is only 6 thousand years old and the rapture is about to happen anytime now?

I don't know how you could conclude that the universe is 6,000 years old and that there is going to be a rapture anytime soon.

But the study and contemplation of the universe is a mind expanding exercise, which helps in any case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 11-05-2014 7:20 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 11-07-2014 11:42 AM Colbard has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2520 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 24 of 174 (740749)
11-07-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Colbard
11-07-2014 6:29 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Again, irrelevant. The bible is the inerrant word of god. We will all be raptured anytime now. Science has always and will always be wrong. Don't forget that science used to tell us the sun orbit the earth. Now, the high priests of science did a reversal and try to tell us that the earth revolves around the sun. They can't get their facts straight!

What's next? Pretty soon, they'll change their minds again and try to tell us that the earth and the sun orbit each other.

Only the word of god is inerrant and forever unchanging. Amen!

Added by edit.

Ok, I've gone too far. Sorry. I'll stop now. Sorry for trolling. Couldn't help myself. This thread reminds me of the Rush Limbaugh program I listened to a number of years ago when Hawking conceded to his friend about the info paradox. Rush made the argument that since science keeps changing it's not reliable, and that only the bible makes sense... or something like that.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Colbard, posted 11-07-2014 6:29 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Colbard, posted 11-07-2014 9:35 PM Taz has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 25 of 174 (740865)
11-07-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
11-07-2014 11:42 AM


Black Hole found
Have you figured out why you have a need to be so angry, and post with a passive aggressive approach?
Would it not bring you relief to get it off your chest?

You don't have to be mad at Rush and others who do not want to think with someone and only against them.

Edited by Colbard, : add

Edited by Colbard, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 11-07-2014 11:42 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 11-08-2014 7:43 AM Colbard has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2520 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 174 (740911)
11-08-2014 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Colbard
11-07-2014 9:35 PM


Re: Black Hole found
Way ahead of you. I figured this out long ago. I torture myself by watching fox news, regularly catch Bill O'Reilly, occasionally tune to Glen Beck, and always tune to Rush Limbaugh. I'm starting to hate gay people and scientists... and black hoes.

My question is this. If you throw lots and lots and lots of matter together, what's to prevent it from going over the threshold and collapse into a black hole?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Colbard, posted 11-07-2014 9:35 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Colbard, posted 11-08-2014 8:52 PM Taz has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 27 of 174 (740985)
11-08-2014 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taz
11-08-2014 7:43 AM


Re: Black Hole found
I find posts easier to read when they are genuine.
I'm not really into games.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 11-08-2014 7:43 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 11-10-2014 6:50 AM Colbard has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2520 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 174 (741146)
11-10-2014 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Colbard
11-08-2014 8:52 PM


Re: Black Hole found
The question stands. What force would prevent lots and lots of matter clumped together to collapse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Colbard, posted 11-08-2014 8:52 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Colbard, posted 11-10-2014 6:05 PM Taz has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 29 of 174 (741257)
11-10-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taz
11-10-2014 6:50 AM


Re: Black Hole found
Taz writes:

The question stands. What force would prevent lots and lots of matter clumped together to collapse?

You would have to take that Q up with those who made up the theory.
Who said lots of matter clumped together would collapse?
It could be true, I have never had a reason to believe it because the universe does not have such horrid items.
Demented men look out there for a moment, then tell us how dismal it all is.
I have studied astronomy when young, searched the sky with a real 10" reflector, and never had a reason to think there were "malevolent forces" out there, and certain doom. I'd prefer that these mental cases kept their dark sentences to themselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 11-10-2014 6:50 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 11-11-2014 10:14 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-11-2014 12:10 PM Colbard has replied
 Message 75 by Astrophile, posted 11-15-2014 8:47 AM Colbard has taken no action

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2638 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 30 of 174 (741292)
11-11-2014 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-25-2014 8:28 AM


Why is the hole black... Because we like it that way.
quote:
Black holes don't exist, or at least so says physics professor Laura Mersini-Houghton in a paper submitted to the non-peer reviewed online journal ArXiv.

I expected a prediction like this was coming from quantum physics. Quantum mechanics never got over the fact that it could not explain a black hole, so now it must destroy the concept. Next comes claims that quantum gravity is fact.

Well I guess QM pulled off the deception of the Higgs Boson, what can stop it now?

The darkest days of science are yet to come.

“Is science chasing truth from reality or is science trying to remake reality?”

quote:
“Dr. Max Tegmark, a cosmologist and professor of physics at MIT, told The Huffington Post in an email. "It's great to see numerical calculations being done, but the results disagree with many published findings, and this might be because of incorrect assumptions.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...s-dont-exist_n_5885940.html

Say that again Prof so everyone can hear it…


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-25-2014 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 7:49 AM zaius137 has replied

  
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