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Author Topic:   A New Run at the End of Evolution by Genetic Processes Argument
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 105 of 259 (770918)
10-15-2015 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
10-13-2015 9:53 AM


Re: No lack of evidence
Evidence: loss of genetic diversity necessary to getting pure breeds.
Evidence: mutations cause gain of genetic diversity that were later inherited by the pure breeds.
Evidence: descendants of pure breeds will increase in genetic diversity over time due to accumulation of mutations.
Evidence: You can't get new phenotypes unless you get rid of alleles for other phenotypes. Breeders know this, it's the reason for preserving strict reproductive isolation.
Completely false. You didn't have to get rid of any other hemoglobin alleles in order to produce hemoglobin C, a new and rare allele that may be better than hemoglobin S at protecting against malaria.
Hemoglobin C - Wikipedia
Evidence: Cheetah, unique cat with fixed loci, which is the end result of loss of genetic diversity in the formation of new species. It could be created by one drastic bottleneck or it could be created by a series of population splits occurring from each former daughter population.
Evidence: Cheetah genetic diversity increases with each generation as new mutations are added.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 10-13-2015 9:53 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 10-15-2015 6:07 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 126 of 259 (770985)
10-16-2015 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
10-16-2015 5:42 AM


Re: A simple refutation to Faith's argument
Faith writes:
The situation of fixed loci, only one allele, meaning a pair of them, per locus, is the dire situation of the cheetah, from which recovery is not expected by conservationists at all.
I would think that cheetahs have about the same mutation rate as humans at 35 to 50 mutations per individual per generation. If 10% of their genome is made up of alleles that affect phenotype, then 3 to 5 of those mutations will produce a new alleles at the genotype level. That's 3 to 5 new alleles per individual. This is an unavoidable consequence of mutations.
But the REALLY main point is that since evolution does reduce genetic diversity . . .
It appears we have proven you wrong on that point.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 10-16-2015 5:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 172 of 259 (771086)
10-19-2015 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
10-19-2015 6:01 PM


Re: Scientists Find More Evidence for Ear Evolution
Faith writes:
Why would it be that the fossil record never contains this common ancestor such as between humans and apes, or in this case between reptiles and mammals.
If you were digging in a field and came across a human skeleton, how would you determine if that previous living human had any living descendants simply by looking at the skeleton? The answer is you couldn't. Even if we dug up the common ancestor we wouldn't know it because morphology alone is not enough to determine direct ancestry.
Not to mention of course that each of those layers oddly seem to contain exactly the same version of the creature instead of a range of transitionals.
Here are a range of transitionals found in successive layers.
Why would that be if it’s all random what died in the layer and there must have been transitionals galore and ancestors galore all roaming around in the same time period or close enough in time to fall into a ditch and get fossilized in the near vicinity.
Your claims are proven wrong by the simple fact that we have maybe one or two specimens for many species. If fossilization is as common as you claim, why don't we have more fossils for species that we know existed?
Sometimes y’all complain that the same design IS used, which supposedly shows that the Creator isn’t very creative; but here you seem to complain that He IS original. One way or another I guess you get to put yourselves above the God who made you.
What we want to know is why the Creator would be limited to a nested hierarchy, the very pattern of similarities that we would expect to see from evolution.

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 Message 171 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 6:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 173 of 259 (771087)
10-19-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
10-19-2015 5:13 PM


Re: Understanding Faith's argument
Faith writes:
Depends on how you are using the terms and it’s not easy to tell. The processes of evolution, which are selective subtractive processes as I’ve been using the term for this purpose, in the process of producing a new subspecies, if using new high frequency alleles, results in loss of competing alleles, which is loss of genetic diversity. This occurs from every population split, but eventually it MAY lead to the state of genetic depletion beyond which further evolution is impossible. It depends on the continuation of selections or population splits. Whether that extreme is reached or not, there should be reduced genetic diversity from population to population to one degree or another.
At the same time, every individual is born with mutations. As I mentioned earlier, for cheetahs we would expect 3 to 5 new genotype alleles per individual. With a population of just 10,000 individuals, that is 30,000 to 50,000 new alleles per generation. Natural selection can't remove all of them. They will accumulate and increase genetic diversity.
Every population split produces a new set of gene frequencies in the daughter population and possibly also the original population depending on how large it was.
Every generation adds new alleles in both populations. Due to the randomness of mutation, the interplay between mutations, and differences in selective pressures, the unavoidable result of this process is that different mutations will accumulate in each subpopulation causing the two populations to become less and less similar over time.
As an analogy, you are trying to claim that rivers should dry up in a matter of months because they always go downhill. Obviously, you are ignoring the process that causes water to move uphill, what we call precipitation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 5:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 174 of 259 (771088)
10-19-2015 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
10-19-2015 6:00 PM


Re: Scientists Find More Evidence for Ear Evolution
OR, more likely, just to get a creationist perspective into the picture, there was no evolution at all and the different structures were designed for the creature they were designed for.
Why would this necessarily produce a nested hierarchy?
Why would the nested hierarchy based on morphology also match the nested hierarchy based on DNA that has nothing to do with morphology? Why would the creator be unable to mix and match design features, like three middle ear bones and feathers? Why couldn't the creator be able to give a bear and a human the same cytochrome c gene with the same exact sequence while giving chimps a cytochrome c gene that differs by 10% from both bears and humans?
Actually, you know, if there was anything to this idea that one creature evolved from the earlier, meaning the one lower in the strata, there really should be more transitional continuity than there in fact is, which is what this study demonstrates. All this happy pointing to supposed transitionals makes much of superficial similarities while leaving out a wealth of differences that make the whole idea untenable.
How do you determine if a fossil is transitional or not if you aren't using physical similarities? How do you determine if a fossil is transitional or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 6:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
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