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Author Topic:   Evolution: theory for the weak-minded?
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 7 of 44 (8354)
04-08-2002 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cobra_snake
04-08-2002 10:27 PM


Well, Mr. DeBlonde...methinks you just attended a Kent Hovind lecture! CS: He did mention the old earth and in the same breath C-14 dating. The shotgun laundry list (straight out of videotapes 1 and 2) hardly deserves a reply, but I am willing if Mr. DeBlonde can explain lucidly as to why he thinks C-14 dating is relevant to the age of the earth.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Cobra_snake, posted 04-08-2002 10:27 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Joe Meert, posted 04-08-2002 10:35 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 8 of 44 (8355)
04-08-2002 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Joe Meert
04-08-2002 10:34 PM


PS: You're really a troll aren't you Mr. DB?
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Joe Meert, posted 04-08-2002 10:34 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 22 of 44 (8401)
04-10-2002 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by no2creation
04-10-2002 12:33 AM


On the subject of argon dating, I think what is presented by AIG-ICR and other creationists stems partly from the fact that none of them have actually worked with the method and are basing their conclusions on perceived anomalies cribbed, cut and pasted from the scientific literature. The link you provided discusses K-Ar dating of which Ar-Ar is a variant. They then go on to discuss 'problems' with the method. First of all, no radiometric dating method is 100% accurate. As with all things in nature, there will be some rocks that simply cannot be dated. We have two choices, we can throw out all ages or we can examine each data point carefully to look for possible compromises to the assumptions we make when dating a rock. Creationists choose the former, science chooses the latter. If your watch fails to keep accurate time, do you get a new watch or throw out the whole notion of time?
At any rate, K-Ar dating always tells us something about the system we are dating, but the ages of older rocks tended to be more scattered about a general mean. Geologists realized that a variant of K-Ar dating could yield useful information about the incorporation of excess argon or the loss of argon into a mineral or rock. This method clearly showed why certain K-Ar ages varied. Ar-Ar basically looks at a step-by-step snapshot of the K-Ar systematics in a mineral. In the ideal case, each step (obtained by releasing small amounts of gas at increasing temperatures) should show the same age. This is called a plateau. In cartoon fashion it would look like this:
====================== 550 Ma
(each = is one release step and each release step gives an age of 550 Ma)
Note: Previewing this made me realize that the = signs below are not tabbed out. You'll have to imagine them stair-stepping up or down to the 550 Ma age)
In some cases, the crystal lattice will lose argon at very low temperatures and during the stepwise release of the we can see this as follows (same symbols)
=============== 550 Ma
= 540 Ma
= 530 Ma
= 520 Ma
= 510 Ma
= 500 Ma
In this sample, the argon loss is evident, but the crystal also retains a memory of the original age. The K-Ar age integrates all these steps into one, so the K-Ar age would lie somewhere between 500 and 550 Ma.
In other cases, excess argon might be incorporated into the lattice at the time of formation. The argon-argon system would the n look like this:
= 600 Ma
= 590 Ma
= 580 Ma
= 570 Ma
= 560 Ma
==================== 550 Ma
Here, the K-Ar age would yield something between 550-600 Ma whereas the Ar-Ar release pattern tells us that the K-Ar age is incorporating some extraneous argon. Scientists have developed these checks for a host of systems and examined the behavior of these isotopes during metamorphism (for example, K-Ar is easy to reset at low temoeratures whereas zircons are not). What is particularly amazing is how well these isotopic systems work and how consistent they are (see http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmeert/radiomet.htm ). There are a whole host of tricks employed by AIG-ICR to guarantee 'anomalous' looking ages, but in reality these are just tricks or lack of care during collection of the samples (for example http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmeert/crefaqs.htm ).
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 40 of 44 (8463)
04-12-2002 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by gene90
04-11-2002 11:52 PM


Mr DeBlonde,
I notice you did not address my post about Ar-Ar dating. Let me simplify for you. The effects you are arguing might happen are indentifiable using the Ar-Ar method! In fact, this is one of the main advantages of the system. It allows us to identify the disturbances and see through those to the undisturbed part of the spectrum. Funny that you did not mention that. How much experience do you have conducting geochronologic investigations? The reason I ask is because you seem rather naive about how they are conducted. I get the feeling you think a chunk of rock is thrown into a machine, a number comes out and if the geologist doesn't like the number, the age is thrown out. Is this how you think the process works? If so, can you provide evidence of YOUR OWN to support this? If not, how does a scientist proceed from the collection of a rock to the generation of an age spectrum? What methods and procedures are followed in the process?
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by gene90, posted 04-11-2002 11:52 PM gene90 has not replied

  
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