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Author Topic:   Big Bang Critics
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 74 of 130 (333893)
07-21-2006 2:39 AM


I am curious why people reffer to the big bang as describing the early universe. We hardly have a clue as to the nature of the universe and it's workings. We have but scratched the surface. What we will ever have the ability to see or detect is an infiniately small fraction of what we know exists. Much of what we see may either no longer exist or will eventually move out of our frame of reffernce never to be seen again. We will forever be greatly limited in our information. This defecit will increase with time. Consider that our time to understand will be limitted to our lifespan as a species on this planet
Why is it assumed that things began at a singularity? If anything occured before would we even be able to know? We assume a beginning.
Energy does not end it just changes form. Apply that basic idea to the universe.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 79 of 130 (334095)
07-21-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by sidelined
07-21-2006 11:18 AM


Energy to matter/matter to energy
or more accurately matter being energy in a specific state.
Do we have any evidence that what is ceases to be? Or is it that what "is" simply changes states of being.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 80 of 130 (334100)
07-21-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Philip
07-21-2006 12:49 PM


Re: Big Bang Critics
Why is it assumed that things began at a singularity?
Silas would better answer this. I hypothesize:
1) The 'expanding universe' evidence supports singularity ... a central core of expansion (if that is what you're getting at).
2) Parsimony exists in singularity of expansion (i.e., it's easier to construe)
3) The Creation-Phenomenon begs *one set of rules*, not many.
4) Theists will construe one *Designer*
5) Etc.
(Please specify what you mean by singularity)
We see evidence for expansion. What did the universe expand into? What is it displacing? We assume all that we know is the entire universe. We are more than likely quite naive in this department.
To make the statement that the expansion we see began at a singularity is more accurate. To say the universe began there is specualtion based on limited knowledge.
A singularity being all energy in the known universe being in one dense point. We assume things about this. There may be an entire dynamic going on in what we describe as a singuarity that we would never be able to detect.
Ah, the *Alpha-event-of-the-alpha-event*. Time eventually *eludes* scientists (as do quarks, light, life, and metaphysics)
(I’ll not respond again as my specialty is not astrophysics. I do *wish*, however, that great scientists (like Silas) would provide disclaimers (as do physicians) concerning the 'bounds of their big-bang knowledge')
We asume an Alpha event. It is our frame of reference just as time is.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 82 of 130 (334113)
07-21-2006 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by cavediver
07-21-2006 6:58 PM


Re: Big Bang Critics
Very true. But it doesn't stop us from trying to understand.
Who wants to stop trying?
According to GR, the answers are nothing and nothing. The universe isn't so much getting bigger, just the distance between points is increasing. Distance is a strangly maleable concept in GR.
This is assuming that what we know is all there is. This is most unlikely don't you think?

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 86 of 130 (334896)
07-24-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Philip
07-24-2006 1:05 PM


Re: Confusing Matter with Mass {as in E=MC^2}
Please correct me on this statement if I am mistaken.
It is likely that matter is the expression of energy in a given state. If everything began as energy this must be true. Matter in effect being an expression or manifestation of energy.
Matter may indeed simply be a property of energy.
Metaphysical carries a stigma. The prejudicial view should be dropped considering the fancy of string thoery and dimensions. There is a bigger picture we need to see and politics really fogs the view.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : new thought

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 95 of 130 (335152)
07-25-2006 12:04 PM


In the first seconds after the Big Bang, there was no matter, scientists suspect. Just energy. As the universe expanded and cooled, particles of regular matter and antimatter were formed in almost equal amounts
Not a chance
Mass is a property of matter AND energy. Mass is what gravity couples to, it is what curves space. In Relativity we call it stress-energy just to be obtuse.
Matter is the name we give to the excitations of a specific type of quantum energy field: fermionic fields give rise to fermions. They tend to have mass, but not very much. Examples are quarks, electrons, neutrinos, etc.
Solid stuff (technical term) is made up of both matter fermions and "force" bosons. The mass of solid stuff consists of the mass of the actual matter fermions (tiny) and the effective mass of all of the binding energy holding the solid stuff together (huge). About 0.1% of the mass of a proton comes from the mass of the three matter fermions (quarks) making up the proton.
To say you can convert matter to energy is a little misleading. You can convert a pair of fermions into a pair of photons. Fermions have mass, photons do not. So in a sense you have convereted matter to energy, but what you have really done is exchange a pair of particles called matter for a different pair of particles which aren't called matter!!
After this I see no reason to call a photon a particle. It doesn't fit in the box. If something has no mass it should not physically exist. Therefore it either has mass in such a small quantity that it has not been detected or it is something other than physical. In this latter it is more likely that our understanding of physical is incorrect.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 101 of 130 (337086)
07-31-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by happy_atheist
07-31-2006 12:50 PM


I think this comes back to cavedivers distinction between fermionic mass and bosonic mass. Photons have no rest mass (which I assume means fermionic mass). They do however have momentum, which is related to mass, so I don't think it's true to say that they have no mass whatsoever.
After doing a bit of reading I have come to understand that there is no evidence indicating that what we call photons have no rest mass. There is also no clear definiton of photon.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 103 of 130 (337364)
08-02-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by happy_atheist
08-01-2006 12:17 PM


Off the top of my head, photons travel at c. This demands that they have zero rest mass as long as the relativistic equations are correct (and I've not heard of any evidence that contradicts them, but if there is I'll stand corrected). It's not possible for anything to travel at c if it doesn't have zero rest mass, from a relativistic point of view.
Everything physical has mass or it does not exist physically. If something truely has no mass then it cannot be physical in nature. Relativity simply is not describing the picture correctly.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 107 of 130 (340886)
08-17-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Percy
08-02-2006 11:14 AM


The reason I mentioned terminology is that your statement, "Everything physical has mass or it does not exist physically," is impossibly vague. By physical do you mean anything that exists, or only anything physical like an anvil? By mass do you mean rest mass or energy mass?
If I were to seek correct interpretations of your statement, one would be, "Everything physical (i.e., made up of particles) has a rest mass," and the other would be, "Everything that exists has an energy mass."
Here lies the problem. There is this wonderful dualism that is being embraced. One can't have it both ways. Energy mass must be a falicy and truly be derived from an undetermined rest mass of a "photon"
Or the nature of all things is in fact derived from energy mass and rest mass is derived from energy.
In other words either all things are derived from physical restmass and "energy" is just an interpretation or all things are derived from energy mass and physical rest mass is just interpretation or manifestation. I believe it cannot be both.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 109 of 130 (341040)
08-18-2006 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Percy
08-17-2006 6:57 PM


What I was actually replying to was your claim that "Everything physical has mass or it does not exist physically." I pointed out that it was impossibly vague, and it still isn't clear what you were trying to say.
It is the dualism being ignored that makes this unclear.

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 114 of 130 (341932)
08-21-2006 12:24 PM


I am not for or against a big bang hypothesis. I am against those who claim evidence suppports a hypothesis. We know very little and have far more questions than answers. "evidence" has a funny way of being interpreted by individuals. One persons obvious conclusion is not anothers and the popular opinion does not always hold to be the correct one. Take the obvious view that the world was flat or the inherant igorance of "savages" in history. I abhore those who misrepresent facts with bias. That is the effect of ego in science. Regardless of my sceptical view of humanity I applaud those who search for answers
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : A bit of polishing

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5882 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 119 of 130 (342270)
08-22-2006 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by sidelined
08-21-2006 1:07 PM


So you have found a specific error with aspects of the big bang theory? Which points of evidence do you dispute?
Exactly what red shift indicates has been in question for some time.
There are a number of people and sites that bring this up. Here are a few.
New evidence against the BBT
The Picture that Won‘t Go Away
Evidence has nothing to do with theory. Theory is a belief, an extrapolation of possibility. There is to much unsettled in this area to place all our eggs in one basket.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

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