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Author Topic:   Theistic Evolution
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 58 (380172)
01-26-2007 3:10 PM


Theism is the belief that a supernatural Deity created the universe, the earth and life as we know it, and the same IS knowable intruding into the affairs of mankind. Deism believes the same EXCEPT the Deity is unknowable and DOES NOT intrude into the affairs of mankind.

Atheism denies the existence of any Deity and the supernatural.

ALL atheists accept and rabidly defend the Theory of Evolution, and most evolutionists, according to all polls are Theistic Evolutionists or Christians.

How could Christians, that is, persons who believe a resurrection miracle occurred accept the ORIGINS theory that all atheists accept?

If a resurrection miracle occurred then logically so did special creation miracles. But the fact of the matter remains: TEists and Atheists agree on ORIGINS that a supernatural deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in reality.

Logically, when Christians and Atheists agree on ORIGINS one group is not genuinely as such since Christians and Atheists are mortal worldview enemies.

We need only to explain why TEists THINK they are Christians when their views and positions say they are not.

How is a claim of Christianity substantiated and verified?

Answer: Agreement with the Bible?

I contend that TEists are not real Christians based on the fact that when Christians and Atheists agree on origins then one party must be deceived.

Ray


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 01-26-2007 5:18 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 01-26-2007 9:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 49 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 6:55 AM Cold Foreign Object has taken no action

AdminQuetzal
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Message 2 of 58 (380177)
01-26-2007 3:28 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

subbie
Member (Idle past 493 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 58 (380198)
01-26-2007 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
01-26-2007 3:10 PM


For the time being I will accept for present purposes your description of theism, deism and atheism, but reserve the right to reopen the question if it becomes an issue of contention.

I have no idea whether "ALL atheists accept and rabidly defend the Theory of Evolution." I suspect a great many of them have only the vaguest idea what the theory says and are no more "rapid" about it than anyone else. I believe you are correct that the evidence shows that most "evolutionists" believe in some supreme being.

As far as accepting the resurrection miracle and the theory of evolution at the same time, I see no problem there whatsoever. The first is believed as a matter of religious faith, regardless of any scientific argument or evidence to the contrary. The second is the best explanation available for the evidence in the world around us about how life developed.

There's no logical reason to suppose that because one believes in the miracle of resurrection one must believe in the special creation miracles. The first gets support from purported eyewitness accounts of a historical event. The second, at least in the eyes of most christians, is a poetic account of how the world came to be, created by people thousands of years ago who lacked the same information and scientific resources that we have available to us today. You seem to think that if one accepts that one miracle occurred, one must believe in all miracles that anyone describes. Let me ask you, do you believe in faith healers, psychic surgeons and levitation of yogis?

You'll need to provide evidence to convince me that "TEists and Atheists agree on ORIGINS that a supernatural deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in reality." There's nothing in the least inconsistent with a christian "evolutionist" believing that science shows us how life evolved, but god is ultimately responsible for directing it all. From a strictly scientific point of view, there's no reason why life should have evolved into the exact forms that exist today, in particular humans. For a christian who believes we were created in god's image, it takes no stretch of the imagination at all to belive that god directed the course of evolution so that the end result would be in his image.

You'll have to explain to me what "mortal worldview enemies" means before I can begin to respond to your claim. However, to the extent that you believe it's impossible for a christian to believe that science can reliably tell us things about the real world, the facts prove you demonstrably wrong.

There's no need to explain why "TEists THINK they are Christians when their views and positions say they are not." What must be explained is why you seem to feel that anyone who doesn't believe each and every thing that YOU believe about christianity cannot be one.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-26-2007 3:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-27-2007 4:34 PM subbie has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 4 of 58 (380263)
01-26-2007 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
01-26-2007 3:10 PM


Just a little spiritual pride

Herepton writes:

How could Christians, that is, persons who believe a resurrection miracle occurred accept the ORIGINS theory that all atheists accept?

Where is the connection? Are you saying just because I believe in a resurrection miracle that I have to also believe that everything an Atheist believes is automatically wrong? If an Atheist says that the sky is blue are you going to disagree with him.

Herepton writes:

If a resurrection miracle occurred then logically so did special creation miracles.

There is no logical connection between the two. Creation is a miracle whether it was by special creation or whether by the process of evolution. The original miracle is that God created.

Herepton writes:

But the fact of the matter remains: TEists and Atheists agree on ORIGINS that a supernatural deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in reality.

I don’t agree that TEists don’t see a supernatural deity as being responsible for design. The TofE is an attempt, rightly or wrongly, to explain how physical beings came to the point we see today. The point is that God did it.

Herepton writes:

Logically, when Christians and Atheists agree on ORIGINS one group is not genuinely as such since Christians and Atheists are mortal worldview enemies.
We need only to explain why TEists THINK they are Christians when their views and positions say they are not.

The difference in belief is that TEists believe that evolution is part of divine creation whereas Atheists believe that evolution is a product of random chance. The Bible is a gift from God. It isn’t an object that is meant to be worshipped.

If some day you decide that there is something in the Bible is not literally true are you going to have to throw out the whole Christian faith?

CS Lewis accepted evolution as being scientific and as being consistent with Christianity. He is considered by most to be the greatest Christian writer of the modern era. Here is something that he wrote concerning the Bible.

CS Lewis writes:

Just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God’s becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth is ... a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other peoples, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology – the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical.

Herepton writes:

How is a claim of Christianity substantiated and verified?
Answer: Agreement with the Bible?

I worship God and His incarnation into our physical world in the person of Jesus Christ. I agree with the Bible, which does not mean that I believe it is to be read as a science text or a newspaper.

Herepton writes:

I contend that TEists are not real Christians based on the fact that when Christians and Atheists agree on origins then one party must be deceived.

It must be wonderful to have greater spiritual wisdom than people like Lewis, Augustine etc.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Edited by GDR, : Taking me forever to get the quotes straightened out


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-26-2007 3:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-27-2007 4:48 PM GDR has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 5 of 58 (380516)
01-27-2007 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
01-26-2007 5:18 PM


I have no idea whether "ALL atheists accept and rabidly defend the Theory of Evolution."

It's not a matter of opinion: ALL atheists believe and accept ToE.

IF ToE had anything to do with supporting God atheists would not support. They support because ToE supports their worldview. Your blue box reply lacks any logic or common sense (= inability to refute).

As far as accepting the resurrection miracle and the theory of evolution at the same time, I see no problem there whatsoever. The first is believed as a matter of religious faith, regardless of any scientific argument or evidence to the contrary.

Imagine that: a miracle in the Bible occurred and you are supposedly having a relationship with the Risen Christ but you believe the origins theory that all atheists use to justify their worldview.

You are confused or deceived.

You'll need to provide evidence to convince me that "TEists and Atheists agree on ORIGINS that a supernatural deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in reality."

The main claim of ToE is that a supernatural deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in nature. Now that I know you are an uneducated Fundamentalist I have nothing more to say.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 01-26-2007 5:18 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 01-27-2007 5:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 6 of 58 (380519)
01-27-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
01-26-2007 9:05 PM


Re: Just a little spiritual pride
Where is the connection? Are you saying just because I believe in a resurrection miracle that I have to also believe that everything an Atheist believes is automatically wrong? If an Atheist says that the sky is blue are you going to disagree with him.

You need to pay attention. I emphasized ORIGINS by capitalization. Again, I ask: How could persons who know a miracle occurred agree with atheists concerning ORIGINS?

There is no logical connection between the two.

Imagine that; one miracle in the Bible is true but not creation miracles. Did you forget that in many places the Bible records the lineage of Christ to descend from "the first man Adam"?

Imagine that; your risen Savior did not descend from Adam, how do you know you are forgiven and have salvation if the Bible is wrong about Christ's lineage?

Can your reply contain any logic or common sense?

I don’t agree that TEists don’t see a supernatural deity as being responsible for design.

The main claim of ToE is that Deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in nature. Mindless natural selection is. The adjective of "mindless" is the chief characteristic of the process and that trait is logically judged NOT to be the result or expression of an intelligent deity.

You should consult the Darwinists on this board concerning the main claim of ToE.

You too are now outed as an ignorant Fundamentalist of which I have nothing more to say.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 01-26-2007 9:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 01-27-2007 5:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 7 of 58 (380524)
01-27-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
01-27-2007 4:48 PM


Re: Just a little spiritual pride
Herepton writes:

Imagine that; one miracle in the Bible is true but not creation miracles. Did you forget that in many places the Bible records the lineage of Christ to descend from "the first man Adam"?

Imagine that; your risen Savior did not descend from Adam, how do you know you are forgiven and have salvation if the Bible is wrong about Christ's lineage?

The story in Genesis is a story telling us that God created all that there is, and it is a story telling us in metaphorical terms how we have been given the knowledge of good and evil or a moral code.

If you insist on reading the Bible as an accurate historic account I'm wondering how Cain found a wife outside of Eden. You ignored the quote from CS Lewis answering your question by the way.

You've confirmed again that your faith rides on the Bible being literally true. The Christian faith is about Christ as God incarnate. You make it about the Bible. Even the Bible says that Jesus is the Word.

Herepton writes:

The main claim of ToE is that Deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in nature. Mindless natural selection is. The adjective of "mindless" is the chief characteristic of the process and that trait is logically judged NOT to be the result or expression of an intelligent deity.

You should consult the Darwinists on this board concerning the main claim of ToE.

The claim of the TofE is that it is the story of how mankind evolved. It makes no claim as to why mankind evolved. The idea that there is no intelligence that created is just as much a matter of faith as the idea that there is.

Herepton writes:

You too are now outed as an ignorant Fundamentalist of which I have nothing more to say.

:) I'm not quite sure how I've been outed as my post is consistent with what I've always posted.

You know Ray, it is sad but this quote of yours is one reason why Biblical literalists are often given so little credibility. The basic Christian message is about loving God and loving our neighbour. Instead of attempting to lovingly show me the error of my ways you instead call me ignorant and tell me that you have nothing more to say to me. I wonder, WWJD.

Cheers
Greg


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-27-2007 4:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2007 5:52 PM GDR has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 493 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 58 (380526)
01-27-2007 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
01-27-2007 4:34 PM


Jumping to conclusions
Your blue box reply lacks any logic or common sense (= inability to refute).

Well, since I disclaimed knowledge to deny your unsupported statement, I'll plead guilty to inability to refute. I fail to see any connection between not knowing something and lacking logic or common sense.

Imagine that: a miracle in the Bible occurred and you are supposedly having a relationship with the Risen Christ but you believe the origins theory that all atheists use to justify their worldview.

You are confused or deceived.

Here you leap to an unfounded conclusion. I am not having a relationship with Christ. I do not in fact believe that any miracle occurred. I was simply describing in a fashion that you did nothing to refute how a christian can believe in some mircles without believing in them all. Again, I ask you, do you believe in faith healers and psychic surgeons?

In any event, you provide no basis for your implicit claim of inconsistency between the ToE and christianity beyond your mere claim of such.

The main claim of ToE is that a supernatural deity is not responsible for the appearance of design seen in nature. Now that I know you are an uneducated Fundamentalist I have nothing more to say.

Obviously your understanding of the ToE is deeply flawed. Nothing in the ToE says that a supernatural deity is not responsible for evolution. The ToE, from a scientific point of view, proceeds on the basis that there is no evidence of such a diety, but this is not at all the same thing as claiming that the absense of a deity is established. I explained how a christian can believe that god is responsible for the particular life forms that do exist. You conveniently ignored that part. Do you have a response?

I am neither uneducated nor a fundamentalist. You, however, have chosen to go down the road of personal insults. For that reason, if you do in fact choose not to respond further, I won't consider it a loss. I will, however, assume you don't have anything of substance to respond with.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-27-2007 4:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-31-2007 3:57 PM subbie has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 58 (380752)
01-28-2007 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
01-27-2007 5:14 PM


I wonder, WWJD.

Jesus was a Creationist. How is your Savior a Creo while the source of info about Jesus is wrong about origins?

WWJD?

Not what you or I would do.

The proper question is: What Would Jesus Have Me To Do?

Answer: point out that in John 6 Jesus said He chose Judas/TEists knowing in advance that he was a son of the devil/traitor from the beginning.

The Bible corresponds to reality: like Judas, TEists are traitors.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 01-27-2007 5:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 01-28-2007 6:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 10 of 58 (380763)
01-28-2007 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2007 5:52 PM


Herepton writes:

Jesus was a Creationist. How is your Savior a Creo while the source of info about Jesus is wrong about origins?

Of course Jesus was a creationist. So am I. I also believe that the Bible is completely truthful when it tells us that God create, but I contend that the original writers of the Bible never intended that it should be read as a science text.

I realize that you saying Jesus was a creationist means something different than when I say it, but can you tell me how it is that you know that Jesus took the Genesis account literally.

Read the story of the Good Samaritan. Where does it say that it is a parable, yet everybody calls it a parable because it is obviously what it is. Jesus used metaphor all the time which was the Jewish tradition. That is how they wrote. Reading everything literally just devalues the message in the text.

Herepton writes:

WWJD?

Not what you or I would do.

The proper question is: What Would Jesus Have Me To Do?

Jesus is pretty clear. Love God and love your neighbour. Jesus was harder on the Pharisees than He was on anyone else because of their legalism. You might want to consider you own views in that light.

Herepton writes:

The Bible corresponds to reality: like Judas, TEists are traitors.

He also said something about not judging lest you be judged. :)

Herepton writes:

Answer: point out that in John 6 Jesus said He chose Judas/TEists knowing in advance that he was a son of the devil/traitor from the beginning.

That's real nice Ray. You know, you ask a question in your OP and I give you an answer thinking I'm corresponding with a fellow Christian. I give you an honest answer to the specific questions that you ask and then you call me a Judas and a traitor. Interesting approach for someone who thinks that they are being Christ-like.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2007 5:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-31-2007 3:38 PM GDR has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 11 of 58 (381517)
01-31-2007 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
01-28-2007 6:53 PM


Of course Jesus was a creationist. So am I. I also believe that the Bible is completely truthful when it tells us that God create, but I contend that the original writers of the Bible never intended that it should be read as a science text.

The epitome of contradiction = TEism.

You care more about what the world thinks of you rather than God.

I realize that you saying Jesus was a creationist means something different than when I say it, but can you tell me how it is that you know that Jesus took the Genesis account literally.

Comment assumes the Bible does not mean what it says.

Who would assert the Bible does not mean what it says?

Answer: Darwinists/atheists.

Why?

Answer: Because ToE and the Bible are diamterically contraposition. Could we expect the enemies of the Bible to believe anything else?

Read the story of the Good Samaritan. Where does it say that it is a parable, yet everybody calls it a parable because it is obviously what it is. Jesus used metaphor all the time which was the Jewish tradition. That is how they wrote. Reading everything literally just devalues the message in the text.

ToE is literally true but not the source of salvation. Only Darwinists believe this.

How could atheists and Christians get along concerning origins?

Answer: one group is not genuinely as such.

That's real nice Ray. You know, you ask a question in your OP and I give you an answer thinking I'm corresponding with a fellow Christian. I give you an honest answer to the specific questions that you ask and then you call me a Judas and a traitor.

The Bible says you are a Judas traitor. You kiss the ass of atheists and do their bidding by saying the Bible does not mean what it says.

You agree with them on origins. You are a traitor, like Judas.

The Bible corresponds to reality: persons who THINK they are close to Jesus (Judas/TEists) are actually betraying Him to His face (Judas kiss). You are deceived according to the Bible. The state of being deceived means that you think that you are alright with God (like Judas did) BUT YOU ARE NOT.

When Satan was through with Judas he left him. How do we know Satan was through with Judas?

He came to his senses and his conscience smote him; he gave back the blood money and went out and hanged himself.

The fact that you think I am not a Christian, is the best evidence that I am. The moment a Darwinist, that is, a TEist, that is, a person who agrees with atheists concerning origins thinks I am a Christian - that would be the best evidence that I am not. Glad you think I am not.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 01-28-2007 6:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 01-31-2007 7:19 PM Cold Foreign Object has taken no action

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 12 of 58 (381526)
01-31-2007 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
01-27-2007 5:50 PM


Re: Jumping to facts
Nothing in the ToE says that a supernatural deity is not responsible for evolution.

Your Fundamentalism is confirmed.

The foundational claim of ToE says God is not responsible for producing physical reality: natural processes are. Supernatural and natural are antonyms, Ms. Falwell or in this case Ms. Ken Miller.

If ToE had anything to do with proving God atheists would not support. Since all atheists support ToE was does that tell you? (this is rhetorical).

You are an excellent example of an ignorant person who has no idea of the objective claims of ToE = typical TEism - the Fundies of ToE.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 01-27-2007 5:50 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by subbie, posted 02-01-2007 3:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has taken no action

GDR
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 13 of 58 (381594)
01-31-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object
01-31-2007 3:38 PM


Herepton writes:

The fact that you think I am not a Christian, is the best evidence that I am. The moment a Darwinist, that is, a TEist, that is, a person who agrees with atheists concerning origins thinks I am a Christian - that would be the best evidence that I am not. Glad you think I am not.

Actually Ray I didn't say you weren't a Christian. I am merely suggesting that your lack of any evidence of love, (remember love God and love your neighbour), gives you virtually no credibility when it comes to talking about the Lord.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-31-2007 3:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has taken no action

subbie
Member (Idle past 493 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 58 (381673)
02-01-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object
01-31-2007 3:57 PM


Re: Jumping to facts
The foundational claim of ToE says God is not responsible for producing physical reality:

Please find me one scientific paper or book that makes this claim.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-31-2007 3:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 02-01-2007 5:13 PM subbie has taken no action

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4137 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 58 (381700)
02-01-2007 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by subbie
02-01-2007 3:28 PM


Re: Jumping to facts
You fail to realize that the foundational principles of ToE are not represented by scientific papers, but assumptions guiding scientific papers. However, plenty of scientists like Wilson have stated the basic same thing Herepton says of the significance of Darwin...."that there is no Creator."

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