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Author Topic:   Source of biblical flood water?
Phat
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Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 6 of 263 (198918)
04-13-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
03-25-2005 11:19 AM


Hey, Sidelined! Even though I am not a strict Creationist as pertaining to Biblical literalism, I will attempt to answer your question:
sidelined writes:
I would like these people to list just what is meant by fountains of the deep and windows of heaven.
This site describes what a staunch literalist would think(from an I.D. perspective) The Bible, Genesis and Geology This site is even more crazy! I was rather intrigued by the authors "earthquake animation":http://home1.gte.net/bridavis/eq.htm
Fountains of the deep=
windows of heaven=

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 23 of 263 (199118)
04-13-2005 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
04-13-2005 6:08 PM


Scoffers, water, and WORD
sidelined writes:
I wish to allow believers the chance to present their case and to apply scientific criteria to see if they can accurately descibe these consequences in the real world,which after all is the only way to test such things.
The only criteria that believers count on is the idea that the Bible...or at least parts of it...are a sort of Divine Wisdom. Not too many people argue that the bible was written by men. The question? Is the wisdom contained within an accurate prognosis on the behavior of humanity. If humanity can be shown to be influenced by forces outside of our bodies, a postulate could be made that outside forces can also influence other events in nature.
Bible says:
2 Peter 3:3-6= First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
Quite naturally, this scripture makes no sense. Was the earth formed out of water? The source used here is by God's word Scoffers can be seen in this post, however. To wit:
it was all swallowed up by a giant pink dragon.
The Bible does mention a dragon, although not a pink one. Are we talking special rights, here?
have the Christian creationists proposed that the water came from Mars yet? There seems to be missing water there, and a bunch of water here now.
But there still isn't enough water on/in Earth to entirely flood the continents. If it came from Mars to Earth, where did it go when it left Earth? Venus?
That is usually the step that creationists are afraid to take, opening up their supposed theories to examination and testing.
Theory: by Gods word.
1) How do we know it is Gods word?
2) Can any of it be tested against human nature?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 27 of 263 (199137)
04-14-2005 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by sidelined
04-14-2005 1:09 AM


Re: Scoffers, water, and WORD
I have never felt that I was a Biblical literalist. Did the story of Noah actually happen? Yes, in a theological sense. There was actually one righteous group of people. How they were righteous I do not know because All have sinned and All fall short of the glory of God.
I never understood how God would bother wiping out most of the people whom He knew were predisposed to be evil and starting over in such a seemingly inefficient way. Why save the animals? Why not merely create more? Why step in and supernaturally create a Universe...(which I see no reason why He did not nor cannot do) and then have seemingly minor problems such as a rebellious humanity get wiped out by a global flood and the animals placed in a wooden boat?? (Where did they put the termites??)
So....if the Flood story (and perhaps the Creation story) were parables...what are they trying to say?
Here is one theory.(and one scriptural example)
KJV writes:
Gen 11:1-7==1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
makes sense. Why would language need to be any different initially. Linguists don't even know exactly why language developed differently!
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Nomadic peoples...settling around Mesopotamia
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
In other words, lets all cooperate.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
In other words, we are nobodies. Lets make a name for ourselves! True human nature!
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Not as if the Almighty needed a ladder or a helicopter. He "came down" spiritually to our level to see what we were doing.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
In other words, since humanity rejected Gods Spirit earlier...they now had the freethinking ability to imagine their own destiny. A true unified and cohesive destiny is impossible without the Spirit of God, however...thus understanding is impossible. The languages already were confused because every group wanted to raise up instead of humble themselves before others.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Not like it actually matters, but who is "us" ? Is this God and Jesus? God and Satan?
There are a few different ways to look at this allegory.
To Biblical Theists, human behavior is predictable. It is intrinsically selfish. It is intrinsically greedy. It is intrinsically self preserving.
Biblical theology tells us different. Deny yourself. Consider others greater than yourself. Be a Servant to others in order to be Great in the eyes of Heaven.
The supreme irony? Christians themselves do not do as their theology teaches them to do. Perhaps this validates the very points made about human nature.
The means for change is there, for a Theist. They merely (merely! ) have to deny themselves in order to find true life and fullfillment.
It is THIS belief and aspect of theology that differs from the naturalist theories of human development.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 33 of 263 (199510)
04-15-2005 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by arachnophilia
04-15-2005 12:21 AM


If you claim to be a literalist, you differ from the common definition of the term. You make the claim that you yourself determine what the Bible says and means. Human wisdom is NEVER the final authority in scriptural interpretation (according to most "literalists" who would claim that the Bible explains itself.)
I am not challenging your reasoning. I am merely pointing out that your method--using your own human wisdom as the final arbitrator--is not orthodox as pertaining to literalism.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 36 of 263 (199569)
04-15-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Ben!
04-15-2005 4:32 AM


Inerrency and Literalism:Source of Wisdom?
Hi, Ben, Perhaps I should correct myself. What I mean't to imply is that Biblical Inerrencists differed from Arachnophilias philosophy, which he has summized elsewhere as being this:
i believe that the text itself does not make literal sense in terms of our modern scientific understanding.
My critique of Arachnophilia is that he is using scientific understanding as the arbitrator of scriptural interpretation.
Take as an example the age of the earth. Most old time thumpers that I know stick rather staunchly to a 6000+ year interpretation. (Kind of like that play, Inherit The Wind) When asked why they believe such an obvious contradiction to the "facts" of science, they would reply that the Bible says it and that settles it. They may throw a scripture out such as:
1 Cor 1:20-21= Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
A Biblical Inerrencist would never take any scripture in the context of the time or place that it was written. They would use any scripture in the bible to support any point of contention raised.
Their logic is that :
2 Tim 3:16- All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,..
You can never tell an inerrencist that they are wrong, because according to them, you have no basis to judge the Bible except through the Spirit of God, and if you are coming against them or questioning the Bible in any way, you are applying mere human wisdom and intelligence.
Personally, I am between the two extremes. I think that parts of the Bible are wisdom imparted by the Holy Spirit through ancient believers to modern believers. Since I maintain that only parts of the Bible are inspired, I alienate the inerrencist. Since I agree that the Bible has a wisdom beyond intellectual and educated theory, I alienate the scientific method. Thus, I am stuck in the middle of this one.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 43 of 263 (199852)
04-17-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by arachnophilia
04-17-2005 8:06 AM


Wow! We finally agree
arachnophilia writes:
i do believe god qualifies as "supernatural" as opposed to "in nature." so what's wrong with thinking the flood came from outside the natural universe? i mean, it was a miracle, right?
This makes sense! Indeed...if God can create a universe out of nothing, why can He not also create a flood out of nothing?
He could even go so far as to place much of the supernatural miracles of the bible in the peoples minds whom experienced such events.
Bottem line: The Bible is NOT natural. I agree with you that we should stop trying to get it to line up with natural explanations.

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