Source of biblical flood water?

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well, my point is also designed to combat those people. you see, they do NOT actually believe it happened the way the bible says it did. they like to pretend they do, sure. but they don't.

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who in their right mind would defend this glass dome in the sky bs? and yet that's where the bible says the water came from.

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Funny I never heard about some sky water bubble, except in some minor side interpretation. I believe it happened just like the bible says.

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so what's wrong with thinking the flood came from outside the natural universe? i mean, it was a miracle, right?

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That some things were beyond what man can detect now, as 'natural' isn't saying much, we can't even detect spirits. But even within the 'natural, we have a wide range of choice as to what to believe, with the known facts. WE can believe the fountains of the deep opened, to give us most water on earth, or we can believe some 'cosmic snowballs' tossed it here over great imagined time, for example! http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlkop/komwater.html
Of course I don't believe the 'evo oriented' have a good sense of time. As an example, the dino bones thread here was closed some time ago for "24 hours". Either that, or some evos simply have a perpensity to lose all track of the truth.

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. The firmament - the hammered-out metal dome that seperates the waters above from those below

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No one claims any meteal dome anywhere, as you claim.
Here are some opinions, none of which conceive some litereal metal.
""1:8 And God called the firmament g Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.(g) That is, the region of the air, and all that is above us. "
Genesis 1 - Geneva Study Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
"The creation of the earth's atmosphere was God's work on the second day of creation. Jamieson pointed out that the term "firmament" carries the meaning of "an expanse ... the beating out as of a plate of metal,"F5 suggesting the utility of a shield, an apt figure indeed when it is recalled that the earth would long ago have been destroyed by showers of meteorites (as upon the moon) had it not been for the protection of our atmosphere. ""The Hebrew word rakia, from raka, to spread out as the curtains of a tent or pavilion, simply signifies an expanse or space" Genesis 1 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org"Expanse or Firmament (raqia). The key Hebrew word in Genesis 1:6 8a is raqia . It is translated firmament in the King James translation and expanse in most Hebrew dictionaries and modern translations. While its original meaning is uncertain, its root, raqa , means to spread out, beat out, or hammer as one would a malleable metal. It can also mean plate. This may explain why the Greek Septuagint translated raqia 16 out of 17 times with the Greek word stereoma , which means a firm or solid structure. The Latin Vulgate (A.D. 382) used the Latin term firmamentum, which also denotes solidness and firmness. So the King James translators in A.D. 1611 coined the word firmament. Today, firmament is usually used poetically to mean sky, atmosphere, or heavens. In modern Hebrew, raqia means sky or heavens. However, originally it probably meant something solid or firm that was spread out.Finally, if raqia were related to a canopy, it seems strange that other Hebrew words, often translated as canopy, were not used in Genesis: sukkah (Ps 18:11 and II Sam 22:12), chuppah (Is 4:5), and shaphrur (Jer 43:10). " In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - An Alternate Interpretation"Ancient extrabiblical writings, although not having the authority of biblical passages, also support the idea that earth was created with water under the crust.The First Book of Adam and Eve, states in verse 70:15 that God ... established the earth upon the waters. The Secrets of Enoch, another apocryphal book, also known as II Enoch, says in verse 47:5, The Lord ... fixed the earth upon the waters. [Rutherford H. Platt Jr., editor, The Forgotten Books of Eden (U.S.A.: Alpha House, 1927), pp. 50, 98.]II Esdras, which was part of most Christians’ Old Testaments until the Reformation, retells the same creation story found in Genesis 1. However, in II Esdras 6:41—42 the second and third days are described differently by Ezra.On the second day you created the angel of the firmament, and commanded him to make a dividing barrier between the waters, one part withdrawing upwards and the other remaining below. On the third day you ordered the waters to collect in a seventh part of the earth; the other six parts you made into dry land, ... [emphasis added]In other words, the earth’s waters immediately after the creation were divided into two parts, perhaps equal parts. One part was below a barrier, and the other part was above. The earth’s seas covered only 1/7th of the earth’s surface. Therefore, the volume of surface water was probably much less than the volume of today’s surface water which covers 70% of the earth. So considerable water would have been on the other side of the barrier much more than any canopy could have held. However, subterranean chambers could have held that amount.Most definitive is the word barrier. It hardly seems to describe the atmosphere, sky, heaven, or outer space. It aptly describes the earth’s crust that vertically divided the earth’s liquid water. II Esdras 16:58 reinforces this: He has shut up the sea in the midst of the waters, and by His command He has hung the earth upon the water.. A few people claim that raqia is the universe, and the waters above the expanse (raqia) surround the universe. This places all the heavenly bodies in the expanse of the heavens, which agrees with Genesis 1:14 17. [This was first proposed by Harold L. Armstrong, The Expanding Universe and Creation, Repossess the Land (Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bible Science Association, 1979), pp. 22 27.]Surrounding the universe with water assumes the universe is finite, when its size may be infinite, or it may have an even more exotic geometry. Let us assume the edge of the universe is only 10 billion light-years away, and absolutely nothing is outside it, even empty space. Surrounding the universe with as much water as the earth contains (1.43 x 1024 grams), as just one example, would spread one gram over every 3 x 1022 square miles or place adjacent water molecules one mile apart!Pure water in the near vacuum of space would clearly be water vapor, not the liquid water the Bible describes above the expanse. What purpose would that water fulfill? Certainly, it would have played no role in the flood and could not be detected today. Why then mention it in the brief first chapter of Genesis?"
In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - Did the flood water come from above or below Earth’s surface? So there are different ideas on the precise meaning, none of which agree with you, aparently?!

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Your notion is obviously picked up from heretical preachers whose interpretation is influenced by the demonic teachings of Copernicus and Galileo

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Sorry, throwing out that those who don't agree with you are heretics is just plain cheap and knavish.

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So thank you for digging out the scholarship that supports the "solid dome" view. And of course nobody claims that there's such a dome nowadays - Voyager would have hit it long ago. Science has shown the view of the writers of Genesis to be in error to the point that even Young-Earthers accept that there's not one

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Well, apparently you believe some men actually thought we lived in a dome surrounded earth? I don't buy it, unless, perhaps, it was some pitiful pagan perception. Believers, I don't think would have swallowed that one any more than some little life form magically appearing for no apparent rhyme or reason, only to spring forth all life on earth eventually! Nobody does, I think you may be right there, and you haven't shown even the demented may have in history, so far either-just an absurd literist rendition of some translated word in the bible, which I already showed had no bearing on other than your imagination of how things were.

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Why YEC's refuse to do the same for the age of the Earth or for evolution is a complete mystery to me.

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The biblically documented age of creation, and the earth is cross checked, and verified by more than an evo preference of how to interpret some word in the bible! Jesus refered, for example to the time of the garden, and also to the flood. The mystery comes when one uses physical only evidences, to try to date things beyond their actual creation! When we add in the spiritual component, it changes everything, and the mystery becomes how men could have actually believe in granny, and the little creator speck!

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the bible says there's a hard object, shaped like a dome, that keeps the water above the sky out. this object is called "heaven"

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that's what the bible says. do you believe it, or not?

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I could give my opinion, but I don't really know. As I understand it, there are at least 2 big trains of interpretation on this point. One has it that water might be outside the edge of the universe, the other, like Walt Brown's book leans to, where the barrier was between the lower earth water and the surface water. But it is a quite in depth subject. I think there was the canopy idea, which also was well accepted, and I think some had it kinda being part of this whole firmament thing?So there is more than one cut and dry legitimate interpertation.

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sure. for one, the egyptians did. if these object we were talking in the hebrew mythology were GODS, it might look a little like this:

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Looking at the guy's right hand, I wonder if he had something else on his mind?

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nope, seems to fit with the themes of the hebrew bible. for one, there's several important themes about god conquering leviathan, who is the chaotic water serpent -- the embodiment of these waters.

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? Oh, and where are these several references found, you speak of? I know of one in Job, where an extinct water dino was spoken of, but go ahead, prove you know what you are talking about, and list the several right here!
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and this is found in other places in the bible too. where do you think we got the flat circle bit?

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Oh right. The flat circle bit. Most circles I have seen were round. But do tell, you know of some flat ones?

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sure they did. how would they have known any better? they didn't have astronauts.

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Oh? Then where did Enoch walk? Where did Elijah go on a flaming chariot? How did God make His rounds of the entire universe, from one end to the other? etc, etc, etc.

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you mean creation ex-nihilo? that is more or less what the bible says.

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Witout God, the concept becomes as silly as stuffing the entire universe into a ball point pen tip.

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Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
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god's not doing it. he's not even commanding it. he's letting it happen.

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Look a little further. 'By Him were all things created, and without Him was nothing made, that was made'. No they didn't make their little selves.

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and yet it is continually supported throughout the rest of the bible. remember, many of us here CHECK our translations. and look at other translations. this is not an absurd interpretation. it's what the bible actually says.

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Nonsense. The bible doesn't talk of a God on a hot tin roof.

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really? i've heard everything from 6 to 10 thousand years. depending on how you count. see, the bible never explicitly SAYS how old the earth is.

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It tells us, within a narrow range of possible opinion, when Adam lived.

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so do we go by the jewish count? they're actually just shy of 6000, at 5765 (2005). do we go by a known date like the exhile to babylon circa 600 bc? do we go by the genealogies of jesus, assuming his birth at 0? and if so, which one? and we're counting by those, do we count the generations they skip, that are included in chronicles?

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It doesn't matter. Whether Jesus was born in 4 BC or 1 AD, the general age of the earth is not affected to ant substansial degree! Whether it was 5765, or 6000 ish, it does not matter a hill of beans. The issue here is millions and billions of years. Don't think you can cloud the matter.

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see, it's not exactly cut and dry here, is it?

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Creation to within a few centuries is cut and dry. Which hangs out evo dreamed up billions of years out to dry!

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I could give my opinion, but I don't really know.

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like i said, i will give this debate to the first creationist who has the balls to say they honestly believe the world is flat, with a big glass dome overhead that keeps out the water, just like the bible says.

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When I say I don't know, I don't mean I don't know it's not something riddiculous like you seem to like to try to portray

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that is what the bible says. only the universe here is very, very small. it's a circle of "earth" and a half-sphere of "heaven" which contains the stars and the planets and the sun and moon. and outside of that is water. granted, it does not say how THICK the heavens are, but the indication is that when you open a hole in them, water comes out.

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Here again, you are negatively simplifying. Like someone saying we will play harps and float on clouds all day in heaven. I would go with either Walt's book, where it leans to the barrier being from waters under the earth from waters on the surface, or I could even see a possibility of water outside the universe, like his book thinks is so impossible. But some silly skydome, sorry, it is an unflattering, negetive, base interpretation attempt.

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but that's not what the bible says. the bible says the firmament that separates water is HEAVEN. in the sky. not EARTH, in ground.

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I already linked to a page or two where he fleshed that out. He presented a bonide case for that veiwpoint.

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a thin layer of water, other than being physically and logically impossible, is not the same as solid object that keeps water out. one is suspended by magic, and one is the structure doing the suspending.

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Impossible under today's world, maybe. Anyhow, I can live with the barrier or firmament between the waters being either of the 2 I touched on.

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no, not really. the bible is pretty clear on what it means. it says there's a solid object called heaven

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Heaven is used a few different ways in Genesis.

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it's not a matter of interpretation. it's what it literally says.

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It's what you chose to take it as meaning. It is a matter of not being cut and dry. There are different legitamate biblical opinions on the matter. This word means that, but comes from this, which sometimes can mean something else, especially when used wit...etc. Hey, these guys really dig it all up, and they do not all agree with you here, you will have to live with that.

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people who propose other ideas such was walt brown and his vapor canopy or subcrustal ocean ideas are perverting both science and the bible. it doesn't fit with either.

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Says you. People who propose some magically appearing first lifeform, or the universe fitting in a ball point pen tip sized soup, at one time, or not understanding the spiritual, when combined to the physical can change everything, are perverted, actually.As far as not fitting with either, bible or science, a lot of these things fit pretty good. Sometimes it is simply a matter of stopping trying make them not fit.

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the bible is simply not a science book. its view of the universe is not accurate.

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Not merely a science book would be more accurate. It also tells of the spiritual and it's effects on the physical, in the past, and in the present, and in the future. It is not limited to the box.

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but to try to justify your faith with misreadings and misinterpretations matched with poor science and geology and physics... well.

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My point also. Apply this to so called science of the physical only, and you may see it in a new light.

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look up some egyptian mythology and get back to me

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I can guarantee they had that on their minds. But as far as whether they had some notion of a metal skydome or something, it doesn't matter. At best it would have been based loosely on the hand me down tidbits they got from the children of the Living God, at worst, well, a pagan dream.

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you're probably used to this verse saying "whales"

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No I was thinking of a fire breathing dragon dino type thing. I didn't look it up, and I see you did find several references to our little beastie here.

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and leviathan cannot fit the description of any earthly animal, let alone a dinosaur. for starters, he has seven heads

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No. The beast in Revelation, or Daniel is a horse of a different color, not by any stretch a leviathan. But that's a long story, and wouldn't mix with a science forum.

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there is no such thing as an aquatic dinosaur. marine reptiles, yes, but dinosaurs are NOT reptiles, and only live on the land

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Fair enough. So when we think of those ocean swimming platawhateverasurasus', we should remember they are not dinos. You know the kind some people think Nelly may have been?

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Oh right. The flat circle bit. Most circles I have seen were round. But do tell, you know of some flat ones?

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draw one on a piece paper and see.

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Oh, of course, make it one dimensional, and it looks flat. I wonder if our canopy may have been like a ring of saturn, only real thin? Anyhow, yes we could use an in box type interpretation to some of these things, and lose a few dimensions, if we are into that, what about it?

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with god. presumably on the earth, btw. but it's no matter, one of the verses above states that god sits on top of heavens in his throne.

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Here we go again with box interpretations! He is able and known to have been in many places, at once, even!

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Where did Elijah go on a flaming chariot?

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into heaven. the firmament.

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Well, there you go, it couldn't have been a metal skydome, or we'd see him pasted up there, with a telescope!

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Look a little further. 'By Him were all things created, and without Him was nothing made, that was made'. No they didn't make their little selves.

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that's great, but that's not what genesis says, is it?

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Don't keep regressing into one dimensionality on me here, I don't live in the box! There are other books in the bible, you know! Now I know it might be easier to try to poke fun, if we could only have Genesis, but we got plenty more, that was just the beginning.

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Nonsense. The bible doesn't talk of a God on a hot tin roof.

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haven't read the bible much, have we?

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I haven't tried it with one dimensional glasses on, but, actually, I woudn't want to, science would be at least as interesting!

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i would not call 4000 years difference a "narrow range" when we're only dealing with at most 10,000 years. that's 40% margin of error!

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I understood there were only a few centuries one could play with there. Who claims 10,000 years, and tries to use the bible as well? If they do, they are out to lunch.

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don't forget, i'm dealing with what the bible actually says.

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So if it says "Jesus rose" it means He is a flower? I deal with what it really says and means, in correlation, and balance with all else.

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. i am not assigning the ridiculous quality

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We'll have to disagree, as I never heard such a whopper, and I heard quite a few weird interpretations.

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it says there's a solid object that divides the water above from the water below

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Right, a barrier, the question is which water from which water, in case you missed that.

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. the amount of water it would take to flood the planet being contained in the ground would saturate the rock so much that there would be no such thing as solid ground.

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What is that supposed to mean? I've seen rocks in a river, and they don't get any more 'saturated' in a few months than rocks on dry ground. Pull them out of the river, even a deep river, and you can walk on it fine!

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he's willing to ignore that blatant statements in genesis that indicate the water came from the source of creation, above the heavens and below the earth: the great deep.

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The heavens meant a few different things, depending on the word translated. If water did come down from deep space, what kind of difficulty do you think this would present to the Orchestrator?

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. there'd be so much water in the atmosphere we'd all drown

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A small thin canopy would present no such problem, if the bulk of the water was from beneath.

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where's the other end of the ladder? most of these suggest a solid roof.

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In a vision or dream, who cares where the rungs end? Heaven can be, I think, if I remember right, the heaven of heavens, where God usually hangs out, the stars, and sky, or, the atmosphere where birds fly. Walt's book pointed out a few ideas for 'firmament' as well. Basically we do not know exactly, even if you like to claim you do.

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. the only legitimate reading is that a solid object, a firmament, separates the waters above the earth from the waters below the earth

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Then, if you were right, they came in from deep space, I take your decrees of "only legitimate" with a large pinch of salt.

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you're the one proposing magic here.

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Before it becomes science, things were often thought of as magic. For the limited science of the box of physical only, it would appear as such, since they are so far behind the 8 ball, on the spirit world. For God, what you call magic is routine, and natural.

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i know a lot about science. i know alot about the bible. and they don't fit with EITHER

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I always can tell when someone thinks they know a lot, how little they actually know!

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. i don't care about it lining up with the real world. i don't care about it lining up with ITSELF. i'm interested in what the bible says.

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Lining up with the real world is good. Comparing scripture with scripture is good. Thinking the bible has us in some metal dome cage is bad.

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to justify science with theology is even sillier.

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When so called science is a belief based faith, I don't worry about justifying it, only slapping it into line when it gets to old age dreams and extrapolations of present physical processes into imaginary dates that disagree with the bible's account of when Adam really lived!

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the egyptians historically had the first monotheistic religion

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No, Adam believed in the One God, as did Noah, etc. But I think the early egyptians may have knew a few things, and may have modeled the pyramids after heaven. The golden city, many feel is mountain shaped, or pyramidical.

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including this "living god" bit. that's an egyptian phrase for "pharoah."

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Yes, but as we saw later, they were mickey mouse, compared to the real deal! Plagues, red sea swallowing their soldiers, etc.

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great serpents. with seven heads. and yes, that's probably what tanniyn in genesis 1 is referring to.

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Dragons, OK. But you again plunge needlessly into the mystic in assigning them 7 heads, trying to tie it into some prophesy. The beast in revelations was symbolic of something, so it was represented that way. Only in your mind is there any link at all.

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. But that's a long story, and wouldn't mix with a science forum.

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no, let's.

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These guys shut down posts for things like that. So better to leave it.

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Well, there you go, it couldn't have been a metal skydome, or we'd see him pasted up there, with a telescope!

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and yet, that's what the bible says. it's not my fault it doesn't make sense. want the verse?

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They no more encountered a metal skydome than the nasa people do when they travel there. Elijah went to heaven.

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heck, if he's there, we should be able to see him with BINOCULARS.

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He's a spirit, so don't hold your breath

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yeah, but we are discussing the views in genesis, aren't we? they wanted to know where the flood came from. if we ignore genesis -- we ignore the flood.

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I can discuss a kitchen in the hardware store, as well as at a kitchen table, and I might even get a fresh perspective on it.

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the bible is an interesting book. you should actually read it sometime.

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Just because I saw no metal sky dome in there doesn't mean I never looked at the book.

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the last bible class i was in really gave the fundies a hard time. because the teacher dealt strictly with what the bible said

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So getting bogged down in silly locked in, unmatched to the real world, or the rest of the bible -interpretations are your idea of a fun time. Hey, it confused the fundy in the room. Well, I might suggest the poor guy was already well on his way to confusion going to such a strange class, where the object of the teacher was to muddle, and confuse with some dogmatic, unreasonable, time wasting ultra literalist interpretaion.

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now try cramming 10 gallons of water into a pebble using a pressure cooker, and see what happens.

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You have a peculiar view of the flood.

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actually, it would. ever hear of something called "the greenhouse effect?"

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Ever hear of something called a tropical, and semi tropical pre flood world?

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you're missing the concept of undoing creation

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Maybe you should miss it as well.

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to justify the story without any attention to the REASON or SYMBOLISM behind it is to ....

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Men grew very wicked, He had to clear the slate.

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which seems to indicate a solid object

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Not to me, it indicates a sky.

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we DO know roughly what the bible is talking about, and it's an antiquated world view that does not fit modern science

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Your version, I'm afraid, sounds like it.

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. if you want to reject science for genesis, the least you can do is actually do that wholeheartedly.

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I don't reject science. Only realize it has chosen the box, and treat it accordingly, as a very limited, yet valid area of study.

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not deep space. the sun, the moon, and stars are all in this firmament. this firmament is like a tent over the earth. the water is outside of it

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If the sun moon and stars are in this thing, I'sd say you have to go pretty far out, to get to it's border. I used the short term, deep space, perhaps for your sensibilities, I should have said, very very deep space, deep as one could go, and beyond.

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science is founded on something called methodological naturalism.

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religion is founded on the supernatural.

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it would be wise not to mix the two up.

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It would be wise to acknowledge all aspects of reality, spiritual, and physical.

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I always can tell when someone thinks they know a lot, how little they actually know!

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don't look at me.

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Why? Who else just said they know a lot about science, and the bible?

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tell me then, according to the bible, when did adam live? please provide the book, chapter, and verse?

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Read Usher's stuff. As Walt Brown's book pointed out, there is some room for opinion there, but not much. Depending on when someone actually left a certain city, etc. It is in the vicinity of 6000 years.

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science is based on something called "evidence" where faith in christ is not

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On the contrary, physical evidence is only part of the evidence, and even there assumptions are rife. On the other hand the faith in Christ, and the ressurection was actually witnessed by many. His book also is alive, and it works, and has been felt directly by untold millions, with innumerable proofs. Where did the first lifeform come from in evolution's tale? No witnesses there! They don't even know where it supposedly came from. Very faith based!

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do you know how much water it would take to flood this planet above the himalayas?

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It wouldn't matter much if they were lifted up near floodtime. Rapid plate movement. Why not?

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They assert that the canopy's sudden collapse would have increased the volume of the ocean by 30 per cent

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What if it was only 1%? As I say with the bulk coming from in the earth.

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that's a new one. a creationist dismissing the bible

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It was your insistance on hidden meanings in verses I was trying to shake, not the bible.

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and he did it how?

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Like He said.

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I don't reject science. Only realize it has chosen the box, and treat it accordingly, as a very limited, yet valid area of study.

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as long as your ok with rejecting parts of the bible too.

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Which parts? Oh no, don't tell me, your perceived metal dome stuff?

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. how do you think people 3000 years ago, without telescopes or spaceshuttles understood the world?

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Depends on which people, like today. God's people? Just the way He explained it to them, as they could then handle it, and as we can handle it.

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It would be wise to acknowledge all aspects of reality, spiritual, and physical.

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yes, but let's not forget which is which.

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Science of the box can't forget what they don't know. I need not forget either, but understand the spiritual to be the more populous, and important of the 2. I also understand some things can't be understood without both, leaving the poor box folks in the dark about a lot of important things!

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you said the bible gve a date for when adam lived

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It does, with a little detective work, as Usher did, and came darn close.

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what other kind of evidence is there for the natural world? and what assumptions? that things behave in natural and predicatable ways, subject to laws?

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The bible is full of lawbreakers! Jesus broke your laws rising from the dead, and walking on water, and feeding many thousands with a few morsels of food, etc. As did pretty well anybody who was anybody in the book, especially God! Yet they all lived in our natural world. The laws of the physical are mere guidelines for christians! Often run roughshod over! We are not limited to their decay, and death by any stretch of the imagination! We are not of the box, but we can use the pitiful science of the box as far as it goes! They however, can't even see our spiritual dimension, let alone use it.

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nearest i can tell, there is no book written by jesus available today. (i've looked)

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He wrote m all! If you want His words, look for a red letter edition, they are also pretty numerous.

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now if you mean in the aspect of constantly changing, sure. it's editorial process was.... evolutionary.

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I mean it actually works now, and isn't dead words. It saves people, heals people, and the whole 9 yards. It's effects are, and were, and always will be well known.

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said to have been witnessed in a story written years after the fact

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Yes by those who knew Him, and many gave their life to back it up. Also, they performed many miracles.

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Where did the first lifeform come from in evolution's tale? No witnesses there!

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who witnessed adam's creation?

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Jesus. So, who witnessed granny?

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actually, look up some abiogenesis research. we know where the first life came from.

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I don't believe you.

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the entire world would have been covered by water, just that the high points would have been covered by water in the form of ice.

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Ha. That's a new angle.

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cause rapid plate movement would leave something called "evidence." we know the rate at which the himalayas are rising.

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How fast they now rise is of no real value in a flood year scenario. Now what kind of evidence would it leave, exactly?

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still be enough to make the planet unlivable. and there's still not that much water on this planet. if there was, it'd still be flooded. where did the water go?

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So a ring, or canopy around earth, even if the atmosphere was different, would have been fatal to life here, even if it was very very small, you say?

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It was your insistance on hidden meanings in verses I was trying to shake, not the bible.

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except they're not hidden

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I just looked at it again, and I don'r see anything in black and white saying what you said about the waters coming down was meaning creation was undone, or whatever you said?
As for the barrier bit, heres a few snips"And divided the waters which were under the firmament from the
waters which were above the firmament;
the lower part of it, the atmosphere above, which are the clouds full of water, from whence rain descends upon the earth; and which divided between them and those that were left on the earth, and so under it, not yet gathered into one place; as it now does between the clouds of heaven and the waters of the sea. Though Mr. Gregory is of opinion, that an abyss of waters above the most supreme orb is here meant; or a great deep between the heavens and the heaven of heavens, where, as in storehouses, the depth is laid up; and God has his treasures of snow, hail, and rain, and from whence he brought out the waters which drowned the world at the universal deluge. Others suppose the waters above to be the crystalline heaven, which for its clearness resembles water; and which Milton calls the "crystalline ocean". " Genesis 1 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org" 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.We have here an account of the second day's work, the creation of the firmament, in which observe, 1. The command of God concerning it: Let there be a firmament, an expansion, so the Hebrew word signifies, like a sheet spread, or a curtain drawn out. This includes all that is visible above the earth, between it and the third heavens: the air, its higher, middle, and lower, regions--the celestial globe, and all the spheres and orbs of light above: it reaches as high as the place where the stars are fixed, for that is called here the firmament of heaven (Genesis 1:14,15), and as low as the place where the birds fly, for that also is called the firmament of heaven, Genesis 1:20. When God had made the light, he appointed the air to be the receptacle and vehicle of its beams, and to be as a medium of communication between the invisible and the visible world; for, though between heaven and earth there is an inconceivable distance, yet there is not an impassable gulf, as there is between heaven and hell. This firmament is not a wall of partition, but a way of intercourse. See Job 26:7,37:18,Ps+104:3,Am+9:6. 2. The creation of it. Lest it should seem as if God had only commanded it to be done, and some one else had done it, he adds, And God made the firmament. What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, " Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!
So dry up with the cut and dry bit will ya?

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you seem to think that science is based on faith, and religion is based on evidence.

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They both have evidence, box science simply accepts only box evidence!

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how many news stories have you heard of people who were clinically dead and brought back to life? the only difference is that he did it for three days.

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How many have you heard of lately that had nails put in their hands and feet, were severely beaten, and a spear in their side to boot, as wee? How many were not in a nice hospital, but were buried already? How many had angels free them from that grave, which were seen as well by others? How many of these light at the end of the tunnel folks also flew to the sky as well, again in front of many witnesses? Ha. Never have I heard such a blasphemous, and sickly, ridiculous excuse for an attempted explanation for history's greatest event, and for which we still use BC, and AD a lot, to refer to it!

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do natural laws exist without god's intervention?

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No, because of it. But for people of the box, they are laws, for people of the book, mere guidelines.

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no seriously, if jesus wrote the bible, why do we have four gospels that can't even agree on what his last words were?

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God mostly used men as pens. Where in any gospel does it say these were His last words? He still speaks! Now Mark may have mentioned, in his account some things that he remembered, or felt inspired about, where maybe Luke would have not bothered with one particular thing Mark wrote down. There is something called the harmony of the gospels, in case this is news to you, where they correlate things.

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ever looked into how many different versions there are?

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Something for every taste!

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nearest i can tell, jesus was born somewhere between 6 bc and 4 ad. not the beginning of time.

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'By Him were all things made, and without Him was not anything made that was made'! 'Before Abraham was, I Am'! He just came down here in a body to save all mankind around that time.

I just posted a few snips where the silly literal metal bit is shown to be a minor opinion, actually I never read one commentary where anyone refered to it in any other way than saying, "as" or "like" hammering out metal. No one else apparently thinks it was some literal metal up there. And his meaning of creation being undone or whatever was what I felt was hidden, cause I can't find it still!

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How hard did you look?

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I don't generally look where they can't spell God. Or where they don't know His name, Jesus.
I've looked at christian commentaries, and they don't think there is metal up there, only it is stretched, or hardened like one works metal. In other words, it is a silly point.