Is logical support of theism possible?

Phat,Your evidence could also used to demonstrate the efficacy of belief particularly as these kinds of miracles occur in a variety of belief systems.There are also a number of different views on what the word God refers to and some of those systems don't see God as a separate agent designing and then manipulating a creation.lfen

Mike,Part of what you talk about I experience as the rich diversity of the universe. I have thought that that anything exists is quite amazing. Had the universe consisted of a great lump of homogenous matter that did nothing it would still be an incredible miracle, but that it exists with such potentials as we have seen from particles up to galaxies and life on earth does boggle my mind.My tendency is to believe that consciousness in some fundamental way that I can't grasp is the source of this. I however am very dubious about your arguments about purpose. Purpose is something we humans ascribe, assign, or even invent to explain our behaviours and the behaviours of sub systems.That a system functions doesn't necessarily mean it has a purpose. It could be put to any number of purposes I suppose. Someone designs a gun to eject a lump of lead over a distance to wound or kill an animal or another human. That was that designers purpose. Let's say I need to hammer a nail in and lack a hammer. My purpose is to affix a sign to a tree. I use the butt of my rifle to whack the nail in. I could have used a rock I found lying on the ground. The rifle was designed, the rock wasn't. In both cases I supplied the purpose, in one case it was the designed purpose and in the second case there was no design of the rock at all.Purpose is what humans create. Design is what humans do. Why would we ascribe this to the source of the universe?lfen

You are describing one of the functions of blood. You can assign a purpose to a function. I could say that the designer created blood so the mosquitos could drink some to lay viable eggs to make more mosquitoes. That is the function for mosquitos anyway and thus could be said to be the purpose that God intended blood for. Thus humans are God's blood cows for his mosquitos! I'm all for studing systems and system thinking and analysis. I think you are going astray here with your ideas about purpose. Purpose relates to what humans take to be their intentions.lfen

I think we could agree on what the universe is. I agree that the universe is a system but I think we probably hold very different ideas of what a system is. I mean merely that it is something with parts that interact. I don't think it has to have a purpose to qualify as a system. What is consciously? and what is made? This is not evident to me. I think system can happen unconsciously, that is I don't think ants or bees or termites consciously create ant hills, beehives, etc.I actually suspect consciousness is the source of the universe. I don't think this could ever be proved because if it is the source then it is beyond the relativeness and discrimination and thus ordinary dichotomies of true/false, good/bad, etc can't apply to it, and hence we can't say anything about it that is true.lfen

Okies, keeping this tightly focused I'll ask one specific question about one system found on earth.Are honey bees conscious? A bee colony and hive appear to me to be a functioning complex system that does quite a number of things.I btw don't have a problem with a definition of consciousness that includes insects but it will have to be distinguished from the self consciousness of homo sapiens.lfen

Endowed?You could guess I would answer they evolved the behaviours.What about the organization that plaque bacteria arrive at on teeth after about 24 hours with channels and such to maximize their survival?What is consciousness?lfen