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Author Topic:   The use of logic in establishing truths
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 171 (439285)
12-08-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by RAZD
12-07-2007 9:49 PM


Re: Observation/Truth
Science does not gather facts, the facts exist whether science understands them or not. Facts exist in the objective reality that science tries to understand, but science does not create facts. The facts that validate relativity did not come into existence because of the logic of the argument, they exist independent of how complete our understanding of the universe is.
An excellent point, to be sure, that facts exist independently from our desire. However, if no one is there to discern the fact from the fiction, then isn't it similar to another crux?
We've all heard the one about if a tree falls in a forest, but there is no one there to hear it, if it makes a sound? Our intuition says that a tree would generate sound waves independent and irrespective of whether or not our ears were there to have those waves hit our eardrums.
But at the same time, isn't noise only understood in the context of the sound waves in conjunction with our ability to hear it?
Likewise, aren't "facts" pointless unless we are aware of them?

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by RAZD, posted 12-07-2007 9:49 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 171 (439376)
12-08-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
12-08-2007 7:55 AM


Re: Observation/Truth
Random mutation not only doesn't require a designer, it would take a massive effort on the part of any supposed designer to keep it from happening. Reproductive events require copying of the DNA, and the copying is almost never perfect. Imperfect copying is what causes random mutations.
I think what Lucy is asking is how you know that its random at all? What qualifies or disqualifies randomness? Maybe that's the way it was designed, I think (s)he is saying.
Maybe its all an obscurantist, but it seems that there is a legitimate point to the question, especially when considering that chaos never seems to be, well, chaotic.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 7:55 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 3:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 171 (439385)
12-08-2007 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Percy
12-08-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Observation/Truth
In this thread? Unless you can connect randomness to the topic, randomness seems like a discussion for another thread.
Don't encourage Lucy.
Well, it only seems fair that if someone is going to bring up randomness that we define what it means, or attempt to figure out how we would now if something was actually random.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 3:16 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 6:54 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 171 (439448)
12-08-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Percy
12-08-2007 6:54 PM


Re: Observation/Truth
Unless I've suddenly forgotten how to write English, the above should communicate the idea that I don't believe randomness is connected to the topic, and that because Lucy has already demonstrated a propensity for going off-topic it probably isn't wise to act as an enabler.
Okeydokey Boss. My apologies.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 6:54 PM Percy has not replied

  
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