We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline

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1. Single parenhood. (Factual that by and large, children do better with a natural father and mother.)

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Yes... assuming their mother and father are capable of living together without making one another miserable. However, children are generally better if everyone in the house loves one another, regardless of what number is there.

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2. Unwanted babies and supposed need to kill the unborn.

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Gotta be alive before it can be killed.

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3. Divorce, legal hassles clooging up the legal system etc.
4. Rise of need for social welfare resulting in higher taxes.

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These would be moral failures... how, exactly?
There's a difference between "this sucks" and "this is evidence of moral decline."

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5. Decline in discipline and behaviour of children.

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Things sure were better in my father's day, when my grandfather would beat the holy living crap out of him. Man, I wish my dad had punched some sense into me like that.

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6. Sexual disease, the worse being aids. Again more tax dollars and social problems.

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Contracting a disease is a moral failure? I should go say some hail marys for that flu I got last month, I guess.

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7. Incidence of drugs, crime and all the ramifications of these.

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What exactly would you say the ramifications of drugs are? I'm not talking about the illegal activities of drug dealers (which would be stopped by legalization) but about drug use itself.Basically, why is drug use immoral?

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8. Need for more prisons, policemen and other enforcement personel.

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Which brings us back to drug legalization...

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9. Rise in incidence of suicide

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Yeah, I'll grant you that. Why we still push bullshit moral codes on kids that teach them what an abomination they are is beyond me.

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10. Increase in corporate, government and social corruption leading to all kinds of problems and causing financial ruin to many.

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Right. That's why labor unions were so unnecessary, back when businesses were so benign.Personally, I like to think corporations have come a long way from "What's that? You got your hand cut off? You're fired. Send your 11-year-old in to work tomorrow if you still want a paycheck."

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There's ten to ponder, my fiesty forum friends.

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Consider them pondered. What else you got?

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Divorce hurts kids, and it has increased "dramatically" since the 50's. Many people like it. I think it hurts kids.

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Yeah, brave stand on a contraversial issue.For God's sake, who likes divorce? "Hey Bill, got me a divorce this week!" "Frank, you dog, that's your third this month! Way to go!"Honestly. Does anyone see divorce as something other than an occasionally necessary but unfortunate circumstance?

This is what happens when you teach people that if they want to have sex, they have to get married.

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Nothing for you Dan, until you wise up. You really haven't a clue and why waste my time and yours?

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Message board rule #502:
Insults are easier than responses.

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Even Romulus and Remus were left unwanted on the hillside
(fiction, yes, but a common practice in ancient times).

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Fun little ancient Rome factoid... the legend goes that Romulus and Remus were abandoned and raised by a female wolf. What most people who hear the legend miss is that the Latin word for "female wolf" is the same as the word for "prostitute."

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Are you aware that the Sumerian word for "sheep fold" was the same as their word for "vulva"? And the Hebrew word for "vulva" (AKA Womb or Matrix) means "fondle" and is used, in the Bible, as slang for girl?

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Hee hee!Unfortunately, nobody can be told what the vulva is. You'll just have to see for yourself.

Why do you consider these things immoral?

You know, let me make this a little clearer.Last night, my girlfriend and I went to a bar with some friends. We split a couple of pitchers, and I went through about half a pack of cigarettes. At one point my girlfriend snuck out back for a joint. At the end of the night, we went home, had sex, and went to sleep.In other words, between us we hit every single one of the "immoral" items on your list there.I'd like to know exactly what we did that was morally wrong, and why it was morally wrong.Whether you did it knowingly or not, if you're going to take a slam at me I'd appreciate it if you'd back it up.

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Uh, I have to say that bad sex is just bad...

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This is why we must educate our nations youth on how to have good sex.THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

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Did you drive yourselves or did you find alternative means of transportation where you were not at the helm of a large, moving vehicle while under the influence of intoxicating substances and putting other people at risk?

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Walked home.

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Did you secure the consent of the people around you who had to breathe your smoke and thus put their own health at risk?

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It was a bar. People know before they go in that the place is going to be full of smoke, and they choose to go anyway. As for those immediately at my table, I was with friends who know me, know that I smoke, and I know from prior experience they don't mind.

However, permission is implied on behalf of the bartender by the fact that he's got an ashtray out. To use the prostitute example, I don't consider soliciting a prostitute to be rape. It may suck for her, but it is voluntary. Similarly, although it may suck for the bartender, there he was offering a service (specifically, a place I can grab a drink and a smoke) and I took him up on it.In this particular case, the bartender was smoking. So it's kind of academic. But it's still a topic worth addressing.

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Forced acquiescence is permission?

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Hang on... who forced him? Honest. Who put a gun to the guy's head and said, "you must work at this establishment?"Nobody has the right to a pleasant job. Or even an entirely healthy one. We don't demand that coal miners be allowed to do their job without coal or gas leaks, do we?

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You really think a bar in a municipality that doesn't ban smoking in public places is going to have a good business if they don't allow smoking?

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Ah. Government regulation sets in.To me, it's nasty business for the government to tell a business owner they cannot target a certain demographic. (In the case of bars, smokers.) It's a hop, skip, and a jump from not allowing a person to run a gay bar because it might make potential heterosexual customers or employees uncomfortable.Yes, I know uncomfortable is a far cry from health-damaging. But the legal justification would be the same for both.But screw legislation. It's a separate matter from morality. As you say, the likelihood of a non-smoking bar in an area where there are smoking bars is slim to nil. I hate to sound callous, but tough freakin' titty.Nobody questions whether a smoke-shop should allow indoor smoking. Why? Because they're selling freakin' tobacco! Why the Hell wouldn't they allow, or even encourage the use of tobacco? It's their damn product! Of course they want you to light up!Similarly, a place to smoke is part of a bar's product. If the customers just wanted to drink, beer is cheaper at the liquor store. You're at the bar for environment, for ritual, and for certain amenities such as smoking. If more customers want non-smoking than want smoking, market demands will make sure it happens.It hasn't happened because nobody wants a freakin' bar where you can't smoke, any more than they want a smoke-shop that doesn't sell tobacco. It would be nice if the bartenders could have a place to work that sold the product they wanted to sell. It would also be nice if I could sell my used kleenex for big money. I can't though, and I can't expect others to avoid products more appealing than my used kleenex simply because I want to sell them.

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Indeed, but it isn't like someone who is destitute has much of a choice about what one will do for money. It isn't that you're raping the prostitute...it's that the prostitute is forced into the position of selling sex.

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Let me ask you an honest question. Do you think it's immoral to solicit a prostitute?For reasons about bartenders I listed above, I think it's pretty clear that I don't think it's immoral. But I don't want to work from the assumption that you think the same thing.

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Right, but if he didn't offer that service, you wouldn't be there nor would most of the clientele and thus there would be no bar in the first place.

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Welcome to capitalism. Enjoy your stay.If the local comic book store didn't sell comic books, I wouldn't make a stop there every Wednesday.If the local bar didn't provide a place to smoke, I'd take my business elsewhere.What's wrong with that?[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 08-21-2003]

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The societal and financial forces that required him to allow smoking in the bar.

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Again... he doesn't have to. I don't have to go to work in the morning. I have to pay rent, so I go.If you think that's a fundamental unfairness, you're problem isn't with smoking. It's with the system we live in.But by the logic you're using here, my having to go to work because of economic necessity makes me a slave. It is entirely against my desire to do so, but I am forced by the economic system. I think we can all agree that slavery is wrong, whether the slave is being whipped by his master or not, right? Does this mean I should not have to go to work?

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Do you really think a non-smoking bar could catch on in a municipality that doesn't ban smoking in public places?

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No. It would be a shitty product being offered. That's why bars do allow smoking. It's what their customers want.

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No, but we do what we can to make sure that they aren't exposed unnecessarily.

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How can one run a bar that allows smoking without allowing smoking?The very fact that it is possible to prevent smoking at a bar separates smoking bars and non-smoking bars into separate products. If there smoking is allowed at a bar, it is a smoking bar. Therefore, smoking is necessary to provide the specific service being offered: a smoking bar.

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When was the last time you needed to smoke to have a drink or serve a drink?

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I don't need to drink it out of a glass, either. I could always pour it into a used dog-food can.

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Similarly, financial straits can put an establishment in a position where they have to put their workers at risk. They may all want to make things safer, but they will be unable to remain in business if they do.

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1) This argument falls apart before it begins. "They can't stay in business without allowing smoking! But smoking isn't necessary to their business! So let's take away their right to allow smoking, which is required for them to stay in business!"2) What if nobody in the town likes alcohol? Do we bemoan the fact that the bar will go out of business if they offer a product nobody wants? Similarly, if the product they are offering is a non-smoking bar, and nobody wants a non-smoking bar, why exactly are we crying for them?

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This means that the workers have no choice but to be subjected to a risk that is not a physical necessity.

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The jukebox isn't a physical necessity either. Neither is the pool table. Or any live music they bring in. Or other people. Or any of the reasons a person goes to a bar. Technically, they could just set up feeding troughs that let you insert a dollar, have a single shot of vodka spat into your mouth, and you could swallow and leave.That'd be one shitty bar, though. I can't imagine anyone would want to go there.But those automatic shot machines are certainly better for the bartender's back than standing behind the bar all day.

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How does cancer relate to "uncomfortable"?

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It doesn't. I acknolwedge that one sentence later.However, telling a business what demographic they can and cannot target is the same, no matter what demographic it happens to be.

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If you want to smoke and risk contracting cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc., you go right ahead. You do not have the right to take other people with you.

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Sure. It's a good thing they came to me and offered the service, huh?

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So unless we're going to say that businesses have the right to restrict employment on the basis of one's status as a smoker, then the regulation has to fall upon the smoker to keep it to himself.

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Or on the basis of one's willingness to work at the establishment? Last I checked, every last business in the country restricts their hiring policies on that litmus test. Ever since we banned slavery.Note: Willingness does not equal desire.

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When did it become mandatory to smoke in order to drink or serve alcohol?

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You're not much fun at a bar, are you? I mean... if you're trying to suggest the only purpose of a bar is to serve you a drink and then clear you on your way, you can't be much of a bar guy.The businesses which simply give you liquor and send you packing are called "liquor stores". It's a very different buying experience. Bars are a social congregation that centers around alcohol. Liquor stores are a store which sells alcohol.

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So if enough people are willing to pay money, you should be allowed to kill people?

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If the person is willing to be killed? Honestly, I say yes. For instance, I'm in favor of assisted suicide.

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The part where simply being there can kill you due not to the actions of the management or workers or product but due to the customers.

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The management and workers offered the service. The customers just took them up on it.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 08-21-2003]

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Precisely. That's my point. The owner likes to pay his rent, so he must put his workers at risk because the customers can't seem to control themselves.

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For starters, I added a bit to my post while you were typing this. It's about slavery. Go back to it.Secondly, there is no reason to control oneself on a matter where one has been invited to do otherwise.

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No, not really. I'm balancing rights: Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

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Get your nose out of my face, you won't get hit.

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And yet, California doesn't seem to have suffered for it.

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Then what's the problem? If people will like non-smoking bars, let the market decide.You keep flipping back and forth on whether non-smoking bars are viable. Why do you keep doing that?

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Especially when the job they were hired on to do has nothing to do with smoking?

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I don't know how many times I can explain the concept of a bar, and why it is not a liquor store with seats. It's still in the above posts if you want to read it.

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How can one run a bar that allows smoking without allowing smoking?

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By not allowing any smoking.

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Rrhain, read those two sentences together. Please.

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In an ideal world, a smoker would not smoke in public since he knows that his smoke will affect others and thus, we wouldn't have to worry about it.

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Who said anything about public? Last I checked, bars were private institutions. Did the government colonize our nations bars, and no one told me?

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The thing is, there is no way to have both. Societal functioning can only allows for one or the other, not both.

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Why not? If smoking isn't necessary to run a bar, why won't non-smoking bars crop up on their own?

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What does that have to do with anything? When you drink, you need to drink out of a container of some sort. But I fail to see how that compares to doing something else at the same time.

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Unless you see some appeal in drinking something out of a used dog-food can, I have to assume you're just being obstinate. Please stop doing so.

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That's precisely right. They can't stay in business unless they allow smoking. But to do so puts innocent lives at risk. Therefore, since a person's right to live overrides a person's right to smoke anywhere he wants, we're going to have to restrict smoking.

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Gee, for someone so concerned about their livelihood, you don't seem to care much about their livelihood. I thought the fact that economics demanded smoking that made all this necessary in the first place?

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But as I said before, a bar is in the business of selling alcohol, not tobacco.

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And as I said before, there is a difference between a liquor store and a bar.Obviously a bar is in the business of providing a place to smoke, or this wouldn't even be an issue.
"Stop smoking in there!"
"Dude... nobody's smoking in here. Smoking isn't part of a bar."
"Oh... okay, go about your business."

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Nobody died from being around a jukebox.

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People do die from being around smokers.

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Look up. The point just went way over your head, but you might still catch it.

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Are you suggesting that it is allowable to restrict employment in a non-tobacco related business on the basis of one's status as a smoker?

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I believe I already gave you an answer to this question. Repeating the question won't get you a different answer, and is, if I'm not mistaken, a violation of forum guidelines.

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I am simply pointing out that such is not justified. They don't really have a choice in the matter.

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Presumably, they were bound and chained to the bar, then. Otherwise, they have the freedom to leave at any time.

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They dragged you into the bar and made you smoke?

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No. They invited me to take part in a service they were offering. I chose to take them up on it.How did they invite me? By having a business that allows smoking. Presumably they do want my business, right? I mean... they're not actively trying to keep me out, and would actually prefer that I (and my money) be there. Correct me if I'm mistaken there.One of the ways in which they have chosen to entice me to come into their bar and partake of their services is to allow smoking. Crazy man that I am, I assume that the fact that they allow me to smoke in their bar means I am allowed to smoke in their bar.Go figure.But apparently, in Rrhainworld, this adds up to rudness and lack of self-control.

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I'm a lot of fun.

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Gee, that's not what I asked you. I'm sure you're a very fun guy under the right circumstances. I asked if you were a fun guy at a bar. It was actually a rhetorical question, though; the point was made afterward.

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No, not at all. If you want to drink and smoke, then do it someplace where you aren't putting someone else's life in danger without their permission.

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They allow smoking. It is not possible to allow something without giving permission to do it. I mean it is logically impossible.

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The existence of the ashtray is not assent.

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I guess it was decorative, then? Weird choice for a decoration. Put enough of those knick-knacks out, and people will start thinking smoking is allowed there.

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They don't have a choice.

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Given my habit of bringing a gun to a bar and holding bartenders hostage, this is true. But for everyone else it's a load of bunk.If they don't want smoking there, they can not allow it. They should be prepared to lose business as a result, though. That's basic business.Again... if I run a store which sells candy, it will do more business than a store which sells used kleenex. I understand that this is horribly unfair to a person who wants to sell used kleenexes. Life sucks, Mr. Kleenex.

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Who said the person was willing?

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I guess my first tip off was when he went to the bar, filled out an application, and accepted the job when it was offered to him.But that's just me, I'm weird like that.

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When was the last time you heard of the management asking the waitstaff if they wanted the place to go smokeless?

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The waitstaff was aware of the fact that the bar allowed smoking when they applied for the job.

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You're a waiter. You want to pay the rent. Where do you go to work when all of the establishments are smoking establishments because that is the only way to stay in business?

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Maybe... just maybe... there are jobs in the world other than waiter.I don't want to go on any sort of crazy limb with that one, but it bears thinking about.

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It was where you assumed that everybody was OK with your smoking and, without asking, forced them to risk their lives for your pleasure.

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I didn't assume anything. The first time I was in that bar, I asked the bartender, "is it cool to smoke in here." He looked at me like I was nuts, and pointed to the ashtray.Why did he look at me like I was nuts? Perhaps because when a bar allows smoking, traditionally it means that they are... wait for it... allowing you to smoke.Crazy concept, I know.One last point. You own a car?Whether a person needs the money or not, they can walk out of a bar.No one can walk out of the planet.

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Like I said, this interaction is because you asked what was immoral in your actions.

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It was where you assumed that everybody was OK with your smoking and, without asking, forced them to risk their lives for your pleasure.

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And incidentally, we got off my personal morality a while ago. If you look back, I mentioned that the bartender was smoking.So even in a world where a man gives me permission to smoke, but I'm meant to somehow read his mind and see if he really means it before doing so, none of this applies to me. The poor man who was being forced to risk his life was also a smoker.I'd appreciate it if you'd stop projecting your personal anger on me.