We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline

I back down on this one. I don't know much about the situation with Mexican immigrants, and I don't know if there's ways out of what you describe.I wonder what the difference is between those Mexican immigrants and the ones from Vietnam and India in California, that all get a convenience store as an entrance gift to America. Is it just numbers?I was homeless for a couple weeks, at least by American standards. I only had a tent to live in, and that was in San Antonio. I camped by a lake in a state park that had just closed for the winter. It was pretty nice. I had no money and no job. It was back to Kelly Services and Manpower. I had to beg a little to get them to move quick in finding me a job.

I guess I can go look at the total stats again. Violent crime is up over 200% since the 50's. I don't think wrong.If overall crime is supposedly going down, then something is wrong with the stats. Maybe we're so busy handling violent and repeat criminals, we no longer prosecute small-timers like car thieves. Or else they're leaving out a lot of the juvenile crime.The policeman who told me he wouldn't bother looking for the kids who stole my dad's pickup explained to me that it's only after the sixth or seventh time that a juvenile is picked up for car theft that he's finally tried and put in a home.But I'm fixing to go look up the links I put earlier in this thread, because at least one of them had total crime statistics.

Looking back through the thread, the only thing I can think is that you're starting in 1973, not "since they started keeping statistics." Or, if you are, then maybe parking tickets are down dramatically and that changes the total.From http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm, these are the changes for various types of crime from 1960 to 2000. I'm leaving none out that they list, and this is based on crimes per 100,000 people, not total crimes, so population doesn't matter.Violent - up 215% (this means it's more than tripled)
property - up 110% (more than doubled)
murder - up 8% (well, that's nice)
forcible rape - up 233%
robbery - up 141%
aggravated assault - up 276%
burglary - up 43%
larceny/theft - up 139%
vehicle theft - up 126%Well, I'm glad to hear from you that crime is at its lowest rate since we've been keeping statistics. However, as far as I can tell, every significant crime that matters is up *dramatically* since 1960.

That reminds me of the school teacher, working part-time after a prolonged illness; living in her car, in a city park, and walking to the school where she used the bath facilities of the PE department. City officials had police sweep the homeless out of this park and thus her story came to light. (Corvallis Oregon, circa 1983). She said, she had not believed that it could ever happen to her (becoming homeless).Whatever the national economy may be, you can bet that the government will try to make it look as good as possible. Average income for example. Average the income of a thousand Americans: one corporate executive, earning $20 million annually; and a thousand workers earning $10,000 annually (totaling $10 million). That's 1,001 individuals with an average income of nearly $30,000. Is this the way average income is figured? It is if you want to be re-elected!Am I too cynical?------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

I am wondering how much of the increase may be due to changes in the definition of certain crimes. Specifically, the definition of violent crimes. A few years ago, in Oregon, the law was changed regarding what constituted such crimes, and sentencing became mandatory on the first offense. Many in the judicial and enforcement divisions have protested the changes because (among other evils) they can result in long prison terms for teenagers who become involved in fist fights. In my day that was a part of one's education. Learning what it was like to be assaulted. Learning how to avoid being assaulted. Defending your girl's honor. Keeping your lunch, or your jacket.If school yard scuffles are now ending up in the national crime statistic, then our clever overlords have found a new way to beg for money, in addition to a new way to fill our expensive new prisons.

Hi TL,Sorry if it came accross that way but I certainly was not trying to trivialize the difficulty of your experiences. What I meant by simple is that you had very concisely set out a "Christian" way of thinking that fundamentalist Christians reject completely probably because it would force them to give up power and control over other people (and their money)...and they would actually have to behave well towards one another (including those that do not share their beliefs). I would like to think more people share your views.cheers,
M

That is exactly why when I read the Economists lists of average income that they publish annually, I see the US high on the list, though countries like Norway and Finnland are higher I wonder what is behind the numbers. In Germany I see that most people do not have as high an income as those in the US for similar jobs..I certainly earn less than I did...but my standard of living is a hell of a lot higher..in fact, I don't know of anybody who is really rock bottom. I think the averages mask the fact that a very small percentage of people in the US have amassed almost all of the wealth and the rest have a lower average probably than many other rich economies.

I wonder if the rise is due to better methods of tracking due to technological advance such as the pervasiveness of computers and computer databases and an increase in the reporting of certain types of crime such as sexual assault....I always find it a bit odd when people like buzsaw claim what a great time it was morally at the beginning of the last century..when millions of people were killing each other in two world wars..oh yeah..much better then...

Coragyps writes:

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"West Side Story" is about on its golden anniversary now, but Bernstein nailed it : "things can be bright in America if you are white in America!"

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Completely off-topic point:Um, not Bernstein. Sondheim. Bernstein wrote the music but Sondheim wrote the lyrics to West Side Story. While Bernstein did write a few lyrics for the show, most of the lyrics were written by Sondheim and "America" is a Sondheim tune. If it weren't for the fact that I had to study this stuff for my MFA, the internal rhyme structure gives it away.West Side Story is one of only three (sorta four) musicals where Sondheim wrote only the lyrics. Gypsy and Do I Hear a Waltz? are the other two with Candide making the "sorta" fourth (he was called in to doctor the show rather than starting from scratch.)------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

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Yeah...all them poor, homeless people are just lazy bums who want a handout.

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No, most of them are drug addicts or alcoholics who don't like the rules in the flop houses that will actually help them. The ones that will help them require them to quit drugs and alcohol and will help them to do it.

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(*blink!*)Excuse me? You didn't just say that, did you?Do you know anything about the demographics of the homeless? Here in San Diego, we have a fairly aggressive group for the homeless: St. Vincent de Paul Village. A few years ago, a Campbell's soup truck overturned on the freeway, spilling its cargo of soup cans. Because of the damage, the soup could no longer be sold, but there was nothing actually wrong with the cans that hadn't broken open. The head of St. Vincent de Paul, Father Joe, was immediately out there laying claim to the cans. Before anybody from Campbell's could come by to make a decision, he was already saying that he was going to use the soup to feed the homeless at the shelters.And yet, despite the great efforts to make accomodations, the homeless shelters are stuffed. If you are homeless, it isn't like you can just go to a shelter and get a hot meal and a blanket. You need to stand in line for hours to get your number for the lottery. And given the over-crowded capacity, you'll need to do this for multiple shelters just to get hope of a bed...which you'll only have for a designated schedule of a few hours before you get kicked out and have to start the whole process over again.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

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You think wrong. Crime is down to its lowest levels since they started keeping statistics.

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I guess I can go look at the total stats again. Violent crime is up over 200% since the 50's. I don't think wrong.

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No, you think wrong. Violent crime is down to its lowest levels since they started keeping statistics.Or is the Department of Justice lying?

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If overall crime is supposedly going down, then something is wrong with the stats.

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Right...because you've actually done demographic surveys and thus you would know.The Department of Justice is lying, after all. We all know that Clinton was trying to "find a legacy" as he was leaving office, so he ordered them to cook the books and make it look like crime was going down under his watch. It's all a vast conspiracy.

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Maybe we're so busy handling violent and repeat criminals, we no longer prosecute small-timers like car thieves. Or else they're leaving out a lot of the juvenile crime.

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Yeah, right. That's it. The prosecutors of this nation are all incompetents. The government assigned to prosecute and track those prosecutions are all frauds. Crime is really up despite all data pointing the other way.And we know that because you've done the work required. You, who doesn't follow the news. Well, of course you don't...you're too busy out polling the police blotters and researching the public archives.

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But I'm fixing to go look up the links I put earlier in this thread, because at least one of them had total crime statistics.

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What's the matter with the DoJ link I gave you?Or are you saying the Department of Justice is full of frauds and incompetents?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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No, you think wrong. Violent crime is down to its lowest levels since they started keeping statistics.

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Your link does not support that statement. It has a more recent start date than the link that Truthlover posted, although both come from FBI data yours has additional sources some of which start in 1973. Your data agrees with Truthlover's during the period covered by your data. However in the period between the start date of Truthlover's data starting and your data starting, the crime rate on these values had already doubled.Did you look at Truthlover's link? Your link doesn't go back to the 50's, so you can't possibly claim it means he thinks wrong.

My addition to your and DrBill's suggestions as to why the violent crime rates have increased is population density. We are growing-- globally-- and in an increasingly restricted space. Growing hurts. Everything gets worse as population increases, and likely won't level off until the population stops increasing. ( Or maybe I'm just anti-social. )My opinion is that it is going to take a lot more than looking at the raw crime rates to answer this question. Too many variables need to be taken into account. My guess would be that crime rates have risen slightly. The question then becomes, "Is it morality, or economics?" I'd go with economics.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

That is an interesting idea. But I guess it depends on whether crime is so density dependent (maybe this has been studied). At extreme densities I am pretty sure crime would increase i.e. you don't do whatever you can to get food you die... Since the topic is US crime I guess if we restrict it to the developed world the US would be an anamoly. Population density per kilometer in many parts of western europe is far higher than in the US i.e. less wide open spaces. Less natural resources to. In terms of violent crime i.e. gun related the levels are far lower than the US. Depending on how you define crime I am not sure whether the U.S. scores higher or lower i.e. corruption in business. On the other hand, most european countries are social democracies of some sort or another i.e. national health care, welfare etc. so the distribution of wealth is a bit more even...so I guess there are less cases on average of people really barely surviving well below the poverty line where there would be a high incentive for criminal activity i.e. sell drugs so you can eat...as you said, it is ultimately economics.

My apologies for missing the earlier data. I had apparently been misremembering something. I've done some more research and indeed, crime is down only to the lowest levels since 73, not ever.After doing some more research, I think what I'm confusing is that crime had the longest continuous drop during the Clinton years.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!