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Author Topic:   Biased Interpretation?
Soracilla
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 49 (190827)
03-09-2005 7:31 PM


the nature of presupposistions
I've read through a couple of these posts and I think both sides are slightly confused what what a presupposition acually is. The dictionary give a sort of general definition so I'll try and define it in my own words and see if you guys agree. A presupposition is a statement which you not only believe to be true, but believe must be true. For example, the law of non-contradiction would usually be recognized as a presupposition. The statement "two opposing statements cannot both be true" is something that we believe must be true, for it can only be proven transcendentally. By that I mean, it proves itself; e.g., if one was to think the the opposite of the law of non-contradiction was true, and the law was false, he would already be assuming that the law was true to say say his view was true and the law of non-contradiction must be false. My point is, presuppositions are those statements which we assume to be true before comming to an argument, and don't look for proofs of them. However, it is very true that other presuppositions aren't as neat and universally accepted as the law of non-contradiction. Indeed, most people hold presuppositions that may be false, or that they may have just been taught and indoctrinated into by their parents or schools.
All people have presuppositions and infer all their positions from them in one way or another. In this sense we are bound by them. Yet, we may also change our presuppositions because they can be false. So in this sense, we are not bound.
Now that we've gotten through that defining of our terms, and we won't all equivocate any longer, let's get to the meat of the subject: What are our presuppositions? Certainly they differ for each person, even though a small few are neat and universal. Some people assume Theism, some assume Materialism, and they base everything from those. However, some infer Theism and some infer Materialism, from even deeper presuppositions. What we must guard ourselves from doing is stereotyping. Not all Creationists assume Theism, and not all Darwinists assume Materialism. Though granted, some may in either party, and if they do they tend to argue with others with a completely closed mind and the argument never gets anywhere. So back to my previous point without running off on a tangent, what we must do is find out each person's true most basic presuppositions, see if those hold up, and see if their beliefs necessarily follow logically from those presuppositions. Don't you all agree?

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
-Mark Twain

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by NosyNed, posted 03-09-2005 7:45 PM Soracilla has replied

  
Soracilla
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 49 (190834)
03-09-2005 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by NosyNed
03-09-2005 7:45 PM


Re: interpretations not presupposistions
Well...actually if you read my definition...it's synonymous with a bias. At least I've always heard them used interchangably, maybe you've heard different. And really, you sort of asked the same question I did in a different way, so I think we're mostly on the same page. However, I would like to say that in that question you asked, you assumed that you knew what were the wrong conclusions. So what needs to be stressed is that we should start by discovering our biases/presuppositions, seeing if they are true, and then examining the evidence and see if what we think about other things follow logically from both the evidence and the presuppositions. The way you posed your question made it sound like we already "knew" what the correct view was and we just wanted to see why other people held the other view. Really, we don't already "know" what the right view is. If we all knew that, then why does this website even exist other than a tool of those "enlightened few" who are just trying to "enlighten" the others? Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I always thought science and logic was aimed at finding truth, not assuming our own view is true and just impressing it onto all who dissagree. If thats what this is all about, then why debate in the first place if no one is going to get anywhere. If this is not what your question was aiming at, and you do agree with me, do forgive my accusation.

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
-Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NosyNed, posted 03-09-2005 7:45 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NosyNed, posted 03-09-2005 8:22 PM Soracilla has replied
 Message 33 by sfs, posted 03-09-2005 9:13 PM Soracilla has not replied

  
Soracilla
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 49 (190841)
03-09-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by NosyNed
03-09-2005 8:22 PM


Re: Sciences aim
So really, you've already closed your mind to any other explaination than the evolutionist one. And all you are really trying to do is see why other people think otherwise. If that's the case, then why debate the topic if you've made up your mind and are not open to the other point of view? You say there is no other explaination that has been proposed. But isn't there? Aren't there many many scientists with PhD's who have turned from an evolutionary point of view to at least an ID point of view? They saw something to it. You might want to look beyond the "that's religious" card that evolutionists keep playing, and look at the actual science of the view as presented by some pretty smart guys. And look at it not as "how can I refute this?" but "is this plausible or more plausible than evolution?". If you've already made up your mind, what's the point of science and debate? What do you seek in science and debate if you have the comclusion predetermined? Isn't that a bias that you seem so against?
Also, why doesn't science aim at truth? It tries to find the most plausible explaination for the evidence, derived from the evidence. Is not that looking for the truth? Sure, all science is induction; it deals with probability, not certainty. But still, we search for what is most probably the truth, not what we want the evidence to say. Don't we?

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
-Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NosyNed, posted 03-09-2005 8:22 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 03-09-2005 9:30 PM Soracilla has replied
 Message 39 by sfs, posted 03-09-2005 10:45 PM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 41 by DominionSeraph, posted 03-10-2005 12:36 AM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 43 by NosyNed, posted 03-10-2005 1:00 AM Soracilla has replied

  
Soracilla
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 49 (190850)
03-09-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
03-09-2005 9:30 PM


Well, you assume that there is no other explanation than your's that is based on the evidence. Many who believe in ID or Creationism would ironically also think that their explanation is derived straight from the evidence (granted many also blindly believe it, which I don't endorse). So maybe your's isn't the only one based on the evidence as you had thought. Also, if you've assumed everything else but what you believe is a lie, and you close your mind to those things, then first, how can you expect others to open their minds to your point of view in a debate, and second, what's the point in studying science or debating if your conclusion is already made up?
Also, many Id theorists and Creationists have very structured line of reasoning from evidence. You might try looking into the Discovery Institute's work.
Lastly, if you truly hold to Solipsism, then there really is absolutely no point in studying science or debating at all, bacause you can never know anything whatsoever (outside of your existence). According to true Solipsism, you can't even know if everything other than yourself is merely your own illusions. Because in Solipsism, all you can truly know is your own existence. Maybe this wasn't what you were implying..correct me if I'm wrong.

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
-Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 03-09-2005 9:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by edge, posted 03-09-2005 10:31 PM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 38 by sfs, posted 03-09-2005 10:38 PM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 03-09-2005 10:57 PM Soracilla has not replied

  
Soracilla
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 49 (191013)
03-10-2005 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by NosyNed
03-10-2005 1:00 AM


Re: ID and evolution
I could do a general reply to all of you, but Ned brough up the question of what I believed so it'd be best as a reply here. I would call myself an Evidentialist Creationist, that is, I believe in Creationism simply because I cannot see how Evolution is more probable scientifically than Creationism, since naturally science can only conclude on probabilities. I just cannot comprehend the plauibility of the Evolutionist point of view, not because I assume Creationism blindly, but because after looking at both sides of the discussion, Creationism just ends up working. Now a number of you asked for scientific reasons how there could be any other option than Evolution, and as not to get off topic here I'll give you two links to the proposed new topic section.
This is why I cannot see how materialism holds up:
http://EvC Forum: Does Materialism Hold Up?
And this is a little essay I wrote a while ago on the topic of Evolution where I give evidences for ID mostly.
EvC Forum: Reasons for rejecting Evolution

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
-Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NosyNed, posted 03-10-2005 1:00 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-11-2005 1:52 AM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 47 by PaulK, posted 03-11-2005 3:37 AM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 48 by DominionSeraph, posted 03-11-2005 1:45 PM Soracilla has not replied
 Message 49 by NosyNed, posted 03-11-2005 2:09 PM Soracilla has not replied

  
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