Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biased Interpretation?
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 5 of 49 (190630)
03-08-2005 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jazzns
03-08-2005 1:25 PM


Re: Where is the other interpretation of these?
The old "different interpreatation" dodge is just hand-waving. If and when YECs come up with some real indiation that they can explain some significant portion of the evidence better than maninstream science and that explanation doesn't boil down to "Goddidit", they might get some atention from real scientiists. If and when YECs come up with a dfifferent interpretation that explains all the evidence as well or better than mainstream science, then they'll have something. Don't hold your breath.
Fact: Some rock has a certain ratio of parent and daughter isotope productions from radioactive decay.
Fact: The rate of decay for the parent isotope is known.
Fact: Methods exist for identifying problems with the system.
Mainstream Conclusion: Rocks can be dated by the ratio of radioactive isotopes and their decay elements.
YEC conclusion: Either the rate of decay varied in the past, or some other effect we have not taken into account makes radiometric dating invalid. Never mind the amount of heat produced by accelerated radioactive decay and the other side efects of such, or the evidence that radioactive decay did not vary in the past, or the agreement between different methods that would require a large number of unknown and perfectly synchronized mechanisms that left no trace of their actions other than the changes required to make the rocks, which we know are really young, look old.
Fact: Mutations happen that add/remove/change an animal's genes and therfore their characteristics.
Fact: Animals with characteristics more adaptive to their environment survive better and produce more offspring.
YEC conclusion: An as-yet-undetected barrier, for which there is no evidence other than the YEC's wish that it be so, exists that prevents such change from going too far. Never mind that we have no evidence of such a barrier, never mind that the fossil record contains powerful evidence that no such barrier exists, never mind the observed speciations and morphological changes; by definition they are insufficient to demonstrate a change between kinds. Especially ignore results observed in "lower" animals and organisms.
Note that the common themes in YEC "interpretations" are:
  • Postulate unknown mechanisms for which we have no evidence and assume such mechanisms are fact.
  • Never address the totality of the evidence. Especially, ignore the most powerful evidence for the mainstream position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jazzns, posted 03-08-2005 1:25 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by LinearAq, posted 03-08-2005 3:02 PM JonF has replied
 Message 9 by Loudmouth, posted 03-08-2005 3:56 PM JonF has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 11 of 49 (190671)
03-08-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by LinearAq
03-08-2005 3:02 PM


Re: Where is the other interpretation of these?
For the rock dating:
1. Daughter products in the rock at formation?
2. Loss of the parent isotope?
please don't address my weak answers since that would take this off topic....they are just examples of possible creationist explainations.
Actaully, they are pretty good examples of creationist explanations that I've really seen. It's worthwhile looking at them a little as examples of the kind of thinking that YECs use.
The vast majority of creationist criticisms of radioisotope dating are of the K-Ar method, in which error due to "excess argon" at solidification is possible. They almost always ignore the facts that:
  • The Ar-Ar method and all of the various isochron methods (except for the lead-lead isochron method) produce the amount of daughter isotope at solidification as a side-effect of applying the method.
  • The U-Pb concordia-discordia methods (the most widely used methods, accounting for more than 50% of analyses) are applied only to minerals in which it is physically impossible for there to be significant daughter product (lead) at solidification.
  • It is common to date rocks by multiple mehtods and the methods almost always agree. Among other things, this demonstrates that the possible "excess argon" problem of the K-Ar method is rare.
  • Isochron methods, the Ar-Ar method, and concordia-discordia methods are essentialy certain to indicate whether the system has been an "open system" (that is, loss or gain if parent or daughter since solidification by means other than radioactive decay of the parent isotope that was persent at solidification).
  • In many cases, the Ar-Ar method and the concordia-discordia methods can produce a valid age even if parent and/or daughter isotope has been lost, and the methods clearly indicate when such an age cannot be produced.
  • The K-Ar method was used in only something like 15% of the dating studies done in the last decade or so.
So, creationist criticisms of radioisotope dating almost all ignore the vast majority of the evidence in favor of zeroing in on one small corner in which error is possible, then claiming that the possibility of some error in some circumstances means that there is always major error in all circumnstances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by LinearAq, posted 03-08-2005 3:02 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024