What is Gravity, how does it come about.

There's no such thing as "force", only particle exchange.Gravity makes no sense as a particle exchange, but only as curvature of spacetime. Since we observe the effects of gravity, and since gravity can only be curved spacetime and not a particle exchange, and since there's nothing else gravity could be, we know that spacetime exists, because we perceive effects of its curvature.Your position is, again, refuted by observation.

Aren't you a little early for All Fools Day?

My, aren't we clever. How long did it take you to Google for that little rejoinder? I'm cut to the quick, I must say.

Hi, V-Bird!Watching this discussion has given me a better understanding of where you're coming from. Discussion boards have to guard against those who tend to channel all conversations onto their favorite topics. If you will agree to confine your particular views on physics to a single topic in Is It Science?, then I will remove your posting restrictions. You might find it helpful to read Message 1 to gain a better understanding of my stance on this issue.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Administrator

Crashie baby... it was instant, I assure you. [JFF]Admin, I will abide with all you say, I reserve the right to question it at every turn, but I always will abide.

Thanks D.Storm for the confirmation. I agree that QM and gravity dont mix. Which makes sense because gravity tends to be linked to mass and some sub atomic particles have no mass so does that mean they have no gravity effects? I remember reading that A.Einstien in addition to saying there is no ether stated there is no gravity as a true force/form of energy because he did a thought experiment in which an elevator in free fall causes the effects of gravity inside the elevator to disappear and the fact that it does not exist in that situation of free fall means it is not truly a form of energy or physical entity but rather a manifestation of an objects mass on space/time. Feel free to correct my rememberance of this. "Spooky action at a distance" tends to break speed c limit unless everything is just one thing and all manifestations of this one thing are illusions.

Just wanted to comment on this one small part of your post: The "spooky action at a distance" requires entanglement, which first requires that the particles be in the same place. The particles can then move apart from each other no faster than c. While observing one of the particles might collapse the wave function to a specific solution and simultaneously do the complementary thing for the other particle, even if its on the other side of the universe, there is no control over what spin or polarity the observed particle takes, and so no way to control the spin or polarity of the other particle to send actual information.So I think you could still consider c the speed limit for how fast one part of the universe can affect another part.--Percy

Correct me if I am in error Percy,
but I seem to remember a experiment I think last year that a laser was used to accelerate a photon that broke the speed c barrier. The particle was recorded before it left. Unless this was a hoax. Do you remember the expirment I am refering to? **edit to include**Dr. Wang at the Particle phyiscs dept at Prinston accelarated a partcle of light into a chamber containing Cesium gas that broke the speed c barrier by 300 times. Paper is still pending in Nature so as of yet still not published.[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 03-30-2004]

I'm having trouble following the mechanics of this conversation and I believe it is due to my understanding or lack of it of "Curved" space.If space occupies everything and everywhere - l x w x h , how can it be straight or curved? It's just there isn't it. It seems to me that if you have a box filled with water, the water isn't curved or straight, it just fills the box.So how a force can be generated by the shape of something that has no shape, but just is, I'm struggling with. Can you simplify how infinite space can have a characteristic like straight or curved.Thanks

Outer-space occupies nothing, it is nothing, the energy that abounds in it can be bent and even manipulated by the 4 forces to form matter, from suns-to microbes.Altho have have arrived at the right conclusion, you have got there, by another route.What is bent is energy, say light, it leaves an object in all directions, the quickest route to your eye is a straight line, but other energy subtly sways the photons off line they take on a swerve and the one that started out in a direct line for your eye, miss you by miles, the ones that started slightly away from your direct line of sight do catch your eye, the trajectory described is indeed curved, but the curve is an attribute of the energy, the space remains un-perturbed by energy acting on it.This all stems with the failure for many to realise that 'Space-time only describes this phenomena, it of itself does not exist, just as a second hand describes the passing of time, 'space-time' just does the same, but in 4D.[This message has been edited by V-Bird, 03-30-2004]

I recall the experiment, though I've forgotten the details. The position in space of a photon can be thought of as a wave probability function. Certain energy transformations, like the ones performed by lasar in this experiment, can smear out this probability function, to the point where there's a finite probability of the photon's arrival at a time earlier than its departure, but only as long as you also consider the position of the photon at departure time as a probability function. The apparent "faster than c" case only happens when you compare the leading edge of the arrival probability function with the trailing edge of the deparature probability function. In other words, the effect is only apparent, not real. This is fortunate, because otherwise it would mean the photon could arrive having never been sent. There's probably a lot out there on the web about this. I vaguely remember reading that the involved scientists were embarrassed that their results generated headlines claiming c had been surpassed.--Percy

It is worth remembering that throughout this 'C' remains unchanged... whatever the speed of light, it remains the speed of light, that is what 'C' means...[This message has been edited by V-Bird, 03-30-2004]

This is to do with gravity... so just bear with me a while.Ever wondered why the speed of light is what it is?Why isn't it more?Considering the size of the universe, and vast open space why is it stuck at such a lowly rate, I know to us it is fast... real fast but not in the great scheme of things.Now earlier I mentioned that Gravitation is an attribute of energy, it is very likely that it is also the cap on that speed.

It's my understanding that it curves into additional dimensions that we can't percieve. Or at least, that's how it's explained.

Explained by whom exactly?