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Author Topic:   What is Gravity, how does it come about.
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 79 (96009)
03-30-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Lizard Breath
03-30-2004 11:54 AM


Re: what is curved space
Imagine space as two-dimensional.If space is flat, any linear motions will be seen as linear motion, and there observable consequences. The axioms of euclidian geometry are dependant on flat space. However, if you bend the 2-d space, you change the properties of the two dimensional space. For example, in flat 2-d space, the angles of triangle add up to 180 degrees. However, if you were to curve the 2-d space, this is no longer true. If you curve the plane into a sphere, or at least in that direction, the result is that the angles of a triangle add up to more than 180 degrees. You can also bend the sheet in a open saddle geometry,the angles add up to less than 180 degrees. In both of these cases, the shortest distance is no longer a straight line, but a curve. The same idea is translated to 3d space. Light follows the curved path of a gravity well because that is the shortest distance.

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 Message 24 by Lizard Breath, posted 03-30-2004 11:54 AM Lizard Breath has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 79 (96019)
03-30-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by V-Bird
03-30-2004 2:34 PM


Explained by whom exactly?
By dem folks what do explainin'!

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 Message 30 by V-Bird, posted 03-30-2004 2:34 PM V-Bird has replied

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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 33 of 79 (96020)
03-30-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by crashfrog
03-30-2004 3:09 PM


Lucid.

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 Message 34 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-30-2004 3:39 PM V-Bird has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 79 (96032)
03-30-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by V-Bird
03-30-2004 3:11 PM


Would a list of physicists specializing in gravtional theories be better? I know people like Einstien, Wheeler, and Hawkings, who spent their lives researching this field this might not be enough. So feel free to contact the thousands of other physicists who work in this field. Or speak with numerous astronomers and cosmologists who deal with gravitional theories and how it affects large scale structures in our universe.

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 Message 33 by V-Bird, posted 03-30-2004 3:11 PM V-Bird has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 35 of 79 (96033)
03-30-2004 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by V-Bird
03-30-2004 2:03 PM


*Shakes Vbird violently*** Out with it Man!!! what is gravity!!!! what do you know!!!! spill it already!!!!!

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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 36 of 79 (96039)
03-30-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Darwin Storm
03-30-2004 3:39 PM


They all use space-time as a construct, something to give our minds eye to view.
Space-time is the form of maths to hang Relativity on.
No one I have ever met except 'amateurs' believes that 'space' gets bent... only the signals [energy] are bent.
To believe that 'space-time' has any form of material existence is akin to believing in aether or flogiston.
Energy needs no 'medium' to allow it to cross the huge distances between the stars and us.

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 Message 37 by Percy, posted 03-30-2004 4:36 PM V-Bird has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 37 of 79 (96053)
03-30-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by V-Bird
03-30-2004 3:58 PM


V-Bird writes:
No one I have ever met except 'amateurs' believes that 'space' gets bent... only the signals [energy] are bent.
I believe you are once again misrepresenting your views as being part of mainstream physics. You have likely met very few people, if any, who accept your views on physics. Are you here to discuss some neat speculative possibilities, or to be cryptic so you can taunt people who think you might be saying something meaningful?
--Percy

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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 38 of 79 (96065)
03-30-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Percy
03-30-2004 4:36 PM


I am not, I am merely pointing out an error in the 'vox populae' of the masses, because a lot of people repeat a falsehood, it will not make it real.
Please read the link...
http://www.ling.su.se/staff/hartmut/uhr.htm

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 Message 37 by Percy, posted 03-30-2004 4:36 PM Percy has replied

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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 39 of 79 (96067)
03-30-2004 5:34 PM


In particular this catches the eye...
''Some further confusion has been caused by the widespread practice of referring to the pseudo-space-time of Minkowski just as "space-time". This misleads one to think of it as a four dimensional manifold with three spatial dimensions to wich time is added as a fourth dimension. However, the fourth dimension in Minkowski space-time does not represent any real 'time', but an imaginary one, while the other dimensions are the three real dimensions of space.''
Please trust me on this, space-time really is just a construct, it works only because it gives form to something much harder to comprehend without it.

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 40 of 79 (96069)
03-30-2004 5:36 PM


You MUST read Minkowski to understand how 'pseudo-space-time' is just a tool.

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 41 of 79 (96073)
03-30-2004 5:52 PM



  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 42 of 79 (96078)
03-30-2004 6:01 PM


Conclusion?
It's a grid.
A grid in four dimensions, just like a graph is a two dimensional construct to allow you to plot movement, say a single point on a wheel, which when plotted forms a sine wave.
Now what is bent in that graph?
Is it the x and y axes?
No.
It is the path that is distorted not the axes...
The same applies in the Universe with energy, the grid remains un-bent or bowed, what is bent is all the stuff that you impose on the grid... the axes [all four of them] remain constant.
That is why it is relativistic, it only works for a single view point of that grid.

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 43 of 79 (96084)
03-30-2004 6:44 PM


...and so, back to Gravitation...
Before we go too far we must all agree on certain things about gravity.
First we must separate it from 'G-force' or powered acceleration, that of say a motor car or fair-ground ride.
They are similar but NOT the same thing.
Yes?
Gravity acts on a body unlike anything else in that accelerates the body uniformly, we see this on earth as 32.1ft per/sec/sec.
Yes?
Gravity can 'bend' any energy anywhere in the known Universe.
Yes?
Gravity 'appears' to be associated with mass in some way.
Yes?
Gravity is an energy of some form.
Yes?
Please take the time to read and agree/disagree with the above.

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2004 7:07 PM V-Bird has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 79 (96093)
03-30-2004 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by V-Bird
03-30-2004 6:44 PM


First we must separate it from 'G-force' or powered acceleration, that of say a motor car or fair-ground ride.
You're in a soundproof rocket with no windows. You're either sitting at rest on the Earth's surface or you're accelerating in space at one g. How do you tell the difference?
Moreover, if Einstien couldn't, how do you expect to?
There is no difference between gravity and acceleration, because gravity is acceleration caused by deformed space.

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 Message 43 by V-Bird, posted 03-30-2004 6:44 PM V-Bird has replied

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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5613 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 45 of 79 (96100)
03-30-2004 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
03-30-2004 7:07 PM


Errr, he did separate them, he just didn't know the mechanism, we now do.
Acceleration is the effect of power [energy] applied to a resisting surface or body. Your car accelerates because power is sent to the wheels and then to the road which resists its' turning, a rocket uses its propulsion against the resistance of the atmosphere and gravity to accelerate to E.V.
What is 'deformed space'?
[This message has been edited by V-Bird, 03-30-2004]

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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2004 7:47 PM V-Bird has replied

  
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