Free will, or is it?

But because god can see both the start and end of time - everything we do is the result of how god created the universe, the complexity of measuring all of the variables is not beyond him.So there is no freewill, it's a clockwork universe - everthing from the fall to the end is all pre-programmed.

quote:

---

Well it is like this Logic. Adam did put all of his descendants in a bad position (one separated from fellowship with God).

---

No that was God, when he created the universe in a particular way and with particular characteristics - he programs the machine, he knows the outcome of every movement of every atom - things happen in this universe because that's how god has programmed the machine and knows to the most infinite detail how things will happen due to that set of infinitely complete circumstances(which is the result of the programming he's provided).

quote:

---

But God sent His only begotten Son to buy you back from the from the penalty that Adam sold you into.

---

But if your god is all powerful, he can cancel that contract any time he likes - the outsider observer can only conclude he's a sick evil creature who likes pain and suffering (which is why he's set the programming up as he has).Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : No reason given.

quote:

---

He knew the moment he created men, the result of his actions would be an imperfect being.

---

But they are only imperfect because he wants them to be that way - if he didn't, he would not build it into the design or provide the means for design to be altered(the snake, the apple, the fall).

quote:

---

So what I don’t get is how a god knowing everything and passing us free-will can possibly sit idly by knowing that he created a planet that was doomed from the start to harvest more sinners then repent-ers.

---

As you mention later - there are only a few options - it never happened (he doesn't exist), he's sick and twisted (by our standards), he's not actually the true god but a minor god who has a playground but doesn't have perfect knowledge of every outcome.

quote:

---

But no He can not cancel the contract.

---

So you christian god concept has limitations (well besides not being able to take iron chariots and failing to kill moses when he set out to do it).

quote:

---

The contract was made with His only begotten Son. If He would pay the debt God the Father would give everyone eternal life who trusted in His Son.

---

A suckers contract, the universe exists because of the way he set it up, so sin only exists because he wants it to exist. The contract only exists to emlimate sin that he's ultimately responsible for - it's a mafia style suckers contract "fuck you, pay me".

quote:

---

All those who receive the free pardon does not have to suffer the consequences of Adams willful breaking of Gods Rule.

---

Adam's breaking of the rules is the result of the universe that god set in motion - so it's just another part of the suckers contract.

quote:

---

If you believe in God you have the option of trusting His Son for salvation or not trusting Him.

---

No, there is no free will - I have no choice - god knows every outcome of every variable of the movement of every atom and molecule for all time before he creates time and the universe (as he exists outside of both) - anything that happens is the direct result of how he wanted things to be - he's responsible for this clockwork universe - he's responsible for sin, for Adam falling, for everything - it's a sick sick puppet game.

quote:

---

I don't know what you are all in a lather about.

---

I don't get emotional about such things, the language is deliberately chosen to appeal to lurkers who might be at risk from Christians or others of that ilk - it's makes it easier that the Christian god concept is pretty illogical to start with.Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : No reason given.

quote:

---

God has Angels that worship Him because they are made without choice of doing anything else. They are like robots. They do what they are programed to do.

​

God wanted more. So He created man.

---

That makes no sense unless God himself is a puppet, he wouldn't be able to create angels without already knowing that he wanted more from a creation.

quote:

---

God knew Adam would sin and separate man from fellowship with God. But God did not want robots so He made Adam with the ability to choose.

---

But he then clearly wanted man to suffer, otherwise why does he create adam and the conditions to sin?

quote:

---

God the Father and God the Son made an agreement that God the Son would pay the price to purchase mankind back out of the bondage Adam would sell mankind into.

---

So he made an agreement with himself about the payment for a crime committed by another and which payment would be made by unconnected parties. Forget my mafia example, he's more sick than that.

quote:

---

God counted the cost and decided that He loved me enough He would make man and give me an opportunity to spend eternity with Him. I believe He would have done it if I had been the only one to accept His offer of a free pardon. That is what makes it so wonderful to me.

---

That if you were the only one to accept, that the rest of us would burn in hell? that's wonderful to you? Couldn't he just give us an opportunity to spend eternity with him by not constructing a system that he knows lead to the fall and sin?

quote:

---

God knew the choices everyone would make. If He was to interfere with your choice He would not get the desired result of you making your choice.

---

But you miss the point - he already knows the outcome of the conditions that he has set up, that people don't believe is a direct result of the how he decided the universe would be.

quote:

---

You guys are supposed to have scientific minds. Look at what God did as a laboratory experiment.

​

If you start an experiment you can let the experiment run it course or you can interfere. But if you interfere you are changing the results.

---

that is a wonky example - God acts from a position of perfect knowledge, he knows how every infinite combination of interaction will (or more importantly would)work out before he forms the universe. He knows that forming the universe in thatway will cause a tree to fall on you billions of years in the future killing you and driving your daughter to suicide (and her going to hell) - he can change that variable before he starts and change the outcomes as he pleases - because if he was not able to do that, he would not be the christian god concept described in the various bibles.Edited by CK, : cmtEdited by CK, : cmt

quote:

---

So God does like doing pointless things. An omniscient being doing experiments to find results that he already knows?

---

No no no - don't get sucked into this trap of using the word "experiment" - how can it be an experiment if the designer can control every variable to the absolute level, can alter ever variable variable to the absolute level and knows the outcome of every possible variable across an infinite number of combinations before he starts. There is no experiment.

quote:

---

You have the same opportunity I had.

---

There is no opportunities - every possible combination of variables and how they would interact is known to god before he starts, the combination of variables he picks directly leads to the outcome, whatever happens is the direct result of the infinite number of choices that he made when completing his programming of this clockwork universe.

quote:

---

All you have to do is exercise your free will trust God and receive the free full pardon right now.

---

I cannot do that unless the variables that he has decided will be present and will interact will allow me to follow that path - if he wants the CK drone to find faith, then before starting the universe, he would have selected the variables that would lead to the outcome.

quote:

---

It is your choice. Exercise your free will.

---

Impossible to have free will in a universe created by a being with perfect knowledge of past,present and future and has total and utter control over the variables and how they will interact.

quote:

---

As of this moment you have no one to blame but yourself.

---

I blame the creator of this clockwork universe, although I cannot see the strings I can only play the part that the variables he chose allow me to.

which makes the "god send a part of him self to earth to get nailed to a plank of wood to solve a problem he created and knew would exist and could have avoided entirely from the start" even more head scratching.This line of discussion always makes me think of this:CONTAINS SOME MINOR USE OF SWEARWORDS THEREFORE MIGHT NOT BE WORKSAFE WHERE YOU ARECthulhu and Christ – Armed and DangerousEdited by CK, : No reason given.

It's ironic that in those sorts of discussions that the Christians have to try and persuade the non-believers that God's omniscience/omnipotence is not all it's cracked upto be (or as we see here try and handwave it away) while the non-believers are the ones who have to take the normal christian position.

quote:

---

You are not the first one that has made the statement God is responsible for them being here.

​

Could you please explain to me how your mother and father exercising their free will to have sex which resulted in your mother becoming pregnant. Then further exercising their free will not to have you aborted make God responsible for you being here.

---

Because God can see every variation of every interaction (If god had set the university with one set of circumstances, a tree would have fell in front of Bluegene's dad's car and his parents would have never have meet and he was never born) before he creates the universe - he knows the ultimate outcome of every single variable at the most absolute level. Bluegene's existances because God set up the universe so that he would exist, what his parents wanted to do is irrelevant - they'd don't have any choice or understanding of the bigger picture, they are just the result of the balls that god rolled at the start of time and the universe.I don't understand why christians are suggesting that god does not know every possible outcome before hand and does not have ultimate control over every element of the creation of the universe.

The seperent and tree are only there because God wants them to be there - god knows before he starts, the outcome of introducing those variables. God introduces those variables because he wants man to fail.A man at the mercy of the games of an all-powerful trickster such as the Christian god clearly cannot be to blame. It would be like locking up a dog because you waved a t-bone in front of it while explaining in latin why it shouldn't eat the t-bone. To then complain it eat the t-bone and requires eternal punishment is the idea of a sick or warped mind or maybe just a bully.

You seem to missing the larger point that has been made over and over again, so let me try one more time to explain it to you.Your take is that god creates the universe and then within the universe, man can exercise his free will as he pleases. The problem with this is that if the christian god is as described, it is impossible for him not to affect all of the outcomes at the point of creation.Why is this? because god has perfect knowledge of everything and is not bound by temporality - the end is as clear to him as the start. This means that before his creation, he is aware of the impact of every single design choice he makes and how this will affect the linear progression of his creation. More importantly because he has perfect knowledge, it is impossible for him not to know how changing any infinite number of variables at any infinitely small or large level would have resulted in a slightly different universe and a slightly different outcome in terms of linear progression of the creation.This is the crux of the problem - it is inherent in the creation that every element and every possibility occurs as the designer wanted - because it is impossible for him not to know the outcomes.There can only be free will in this universe, if a) god sets the intital conditions but is unable to determine possible outcomes or b) god is unable to control all of the conditiions and variables that determine the state of the universe. Neither a or b are possible with the mainstgream christian god concept.

Evolution? Eh ? What's this to do with evolution?you don't believe temporality is linear in our universe?I'll leave it there as you seem mentally unable to grasp the concepts we are discussing and the implications of said concepts - maybe one of the other posters could draw a diagram or something.Edited by CK, : No reason given.