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Author
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Topic: The Christian view of life
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Message 166 of 193 (324395)
06-21-2006 12:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
06-21-2006 10:12 AM
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Re: Is nihilism about ultimates or about daily life?
The nihilist "misses" that? After pondering carefully and realizing that there is no purpose other than that of his own making? Nihilists don't miss that at all. They have found that it's a sham and a delusion. Tolstoy had all kinds of purpose in his life, but when he looked at it fearlessly he realized that it gave only a spurious and deceptive purpose, ephemeral at best, while the human being is built for eternity. I've had my Ivan Illyich moments too - I guess we all react differently. After his conversion didn't Tolstoy reject the divinity of Christ and become some kind of quasi-Christian anarchist? Are you suggesting that we all follow his lead?
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 10:12 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 170 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 12:57 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Um, no, it DOES matter and that's the point
On the other hand one could argue that Robin's plan to put himself out with the trash denies death too. Kind of the nihilistic version of hysteria.
The point is that it really doesn't matter one way or the other. Yes, the gospel according to nihilism. But really, this is just the intellectual equivalent of the sentimental denial of death we're talking about. You have no less love of your own self and no less sorrow at the thought of your own demise than the family do toward their daughter. They try to deny their loss by celebrating her life, you try to deny your own sense of loss by pretending none of it matters. Nihilism is REALLY the recognition of the great value of human life in a universe shorn of any objective basis for it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 168 of 193 (324399)
06-21-2006 12:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
06-21-2006 12:38 PM
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Re: Um, no, it DOES matter and that's the point
You have no less love of your own self and no less sorrow at the thought of your own demise than the family do toward their daughter. They try to deny their loss by celebrating her life, you try to deny your own sense of loss by pretending none of it matters. Of course it matters TO ME. I meant that, objectively speaking, it doesn't matter.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 167 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 12:38 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 169 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 12:48 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Um, no, it DOES matter and that's the point
Of course it matters TO ME. I meant that, objectively speaking, it doesn't matter. I think a nihilist believes/feels/intuits/knows that human life matters objectively, and that your own life matters objectively, but you are forced to deny it and claim it doesn't matter because you can't find rational grounds for this belief.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by robinrohan, posted 06-21-2006 12:43 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 170 of 193 (324409)
06-21-2006 12:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 166 by JavaMan
06-21-2006 12:26 PM
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Re: Is nihilism about ultimates or about daily life?
I would never recommend following Tolstoy where he ended up, which I consider a very sad conclusion, but I think his experience of disillusionment is a true reflection of the true plight of humanity in a purposeless universe.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by JavaMan, posted 06-21-2006 12:26 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Message 171 of 193 (324465)
06-21-2006 3:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
06-21-2006 12:17 PM
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Psychology of mourning
Faith writes: Oh wow, that's really going to show the murderer what-for. Now really JM, this is a PARODY of retaliation, pantomime, or "retaliation" in quotes, and that amounts to what I called it, bravado. robinrohan writes: This is also a euphemism. Their daughter is not coming back, and in that sense the "power" of the murderer will last forever. They'd be better off vowing vengeance on the murderer, in my book. Of course, you're both right, but more importantly, you're both wrong. What you're missing is the psychological effect of this gesture of "celebrating her life". Of course it won't affect the murderer, but it will affect the family and their sense of powerlessness.
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 12:17 PM | | Faith has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 173 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 4:04 PM | | JavaMan has replied |
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2922 days) Posts: 882 Joined: 06-22-2005
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Message 172 of 193 (324479)
06-21-2006 3:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
06-21-2006 9:52 AM
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Celebrating Life
Celebration of life at someone's death just hits me as a denial of death. Life and death are both real and affirming one does not deny the other. What better time to celebrate the totality of someone's life than when we are gathered to mourn their passing? Besides, I would never presume to tell someone else how to grieve the death of a loved one. For many people (including me), celebrating their life is very much a part of the process. That doesn't mean I am not respectful of someone else who might need to grieve the same person differently. We need to make room for different ways of grieving. It is an intensely personal thing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 9:52 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 173 of 193 (324484)
06-21-2006 4:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 171 by JavaMan
06-21-2006 3:20 PM
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Re: Psychology of mourning
but it will affect the family and their sense of powerlessness. How? By masking it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by JavaMan, posted 06-21-2006 3:20 PM | | JavaMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 176 by JavaMan, posted 06-21-2006 6:32 PM | | iano has not replied |
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Re: Is nihilism about ultimates or about daily life?
This is also a euphemism. Their daughter is not coming back, and in that sense the "power" of the murderer will last forever. They'd be better off vowing vengeance on the murderer, in my book. See my response to Faith, which is also a response to this post of yours.
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 165 by robinrohan, posted 06-21-2006 12:19 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Re: Is nihilism about ultimates or about daily life?
The problem with the "celebration of life" idea at a funeral is that it's a euphemism. And according to my code, euphemisms are not permitted. You've got a moral code? Where did that come from, Mr Nihilist? 
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Message 176 of 193 (324535)
06-21-2006 6:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 173 by iano
06-21-2006 4:04 PM
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Re: Psychology of mourning
but it will affect the family and their sense of powerlessness. How? By masking it? No. By allowing them to feel they're doing something for their daughter - even if they couldn't stop her being killed. They'll still have the loss and the guilt, but it may do them some good all the same.
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 173 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 4:04 PM | | iano has not replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 177 of 193 (324537)
06-21-2006 6:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 172 by deerbreh
06-21-2006 3:52 PM
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Re: Celebrating Life
I would never presume to tell someone else how to grieve the death of a loved one. For many people (including me), celebrating their life is very much a part of the process. I wouldn't presume either personally. But can we make a distinction here between personal remarks to someone and impersonal comments which those people will never know about?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 172 by deerbreh, posted 06-21-2006 3:52 PM | | deerbreh has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 187 by deerbreh, posted 06-21-2006 9:20 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 178 of 193 (324538)
06-21-2006 6:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 175 by JavaMan
06-21-2006 6:19 PM
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Re: Is nihilism about ultimates or about daily life?
You've got a moral code? Where did that come from, Mr Nihilist? Just something I thought up.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 175 by JavaMan, posted 06-21-2006 6:19 PM | | JavaMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 180 by JavaMan, posted 06-21-2006 6:43 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 179 of 193 (324539)
06-21-2006 6:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 175 by JavaMan
06-21-2006 6:19 PM
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Re: Is nihilism about ultimates or about daily life?
Mr Nihilist? Hey, if Robin ever converts he could call himself Mr Ex.Nihilist ('old' timer joke)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 175 by JavaMan, posted 06-21-2006 6:19 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days) Posts: 475 From: York, England Joined: 08-05-2005
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Something robinrohan made up
You've got a moral code? Where did that come from, Mr Nihilist? Just something I thought up. Thought so.
'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 178 by robinrohan, posted 06-21-2006 6:40 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 181 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 6:45 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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