EvC Forum: God's purpose

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Topic: God's purpose

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 72 of 101 (356586)
10-15-2006 1:26 AM

Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
10-15-2006 12:36 AM

Re: Scinece and God

nemesis_juggernaut writes:

If you believe in God then you believe that it is God that assigns purpose, not purpose defines God.

Why can't somebody believe in a God that doesn't "assign purpose"?

What is inherent in the nature of God that makes you assume that He must "assign purpose"?

Why can't God allow/expect us to determine our own purpose?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-15-2006 12:36 AM		Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-15-2006 1:51 AM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 74 of 101 (356595)
10-15-2006 2:06 AM

Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
10-15-2006 1:51 AM

nemesis_juggernaut writes:

if God is real then He/She/It/They created us for a reason.

How do you know that? And why would it be true?

For all we - i.e. you - know, we could be something that God hawked up after a long night of partying.

You are certainly welcome to believe that you have no purpose.

I never said that. I asked why I can't decide what my own purpose is.

I believe that my purpose is far more meaningful if it is my own, not one that is imposed on me arbitrarily from outside.

God would then has no real meaning.

You're confusing God's purpose with mine/ours.

God could exist without you understanding what his purpose is, if any. He could also exist without the petty need to dictate my purpose.

I like the parent/child analogy: a parent doesn't decide what his child's "purpose" is. That would make the child a mere commodity. A parent wants his child to find it's own purpose in life.

Neither does a child decide what it's parent's purpose is.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-15-2006 1:51 AM		Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 75 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 2:18 AM	ringo has replied
	Message 79 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-15-2006 2:45 AM	ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 78 of 101 (356601)
10-15-2006 2:33 AM

Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
10-15-2006 2:18 AM

GDR writes:

The question is not what the child's purpose in life is, the question is what was your purpose in having the child in the first place.

Our "purpose" in having children is that that is what living organisms do - they reproduce. You might as well ask, "What was your purpose in breathing?"

Similarly, why can't God "reproduce" - i.e. create us "in His own image" - just because that is His nature? Why do you feel obligated to seek a "purpose"?

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	Message 75 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 2:18 AM		GDR has replied

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	Message 84 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 10:43 AM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 82 of 101 (356606)
10-15-2006 3:04 AM

Reply to: Message 79 by Hyroglyphx
10-15-2006 2:45 AM

nemesis_juggernaut writes:

Philosophically, how can God do anything without purpose and still be God?

That question is utterly meaningless.

If God is God (and for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that He is

) then He can do anything He wants - including things that have absolutely no purpose. You are limiting God's power when you impose the need for purpose on Him.

you didn't will yourself to exist.

What does that have to do with "purpose"?

We aren't talking about human beings, we're talking about God.

We are human beings. We're always talking about human beings, even if it's human beings' ideas about God.

If God's real, then He made beings for a reason.

You keep saying that, but how can you possibly know it's true?

... in the same way you or I had absolutely no control in our own existence, the purpose for that existence was established beforehand.

But how can you know that there was a "purpose"?

Once again, the parent/child analogy: A lot of children are "accidents". There was no "purpose" in creating them. Does that make their existence less meaningful? Is a parent's relationship to his child somehow "less" because there was no "purpose" in having the child?

I'm not suggesting that God forces us to do His will....

I'm not suggesting that you are. But if you insisting that God had (or needed to have) some "purpose" in creating us, you are diminishing us and you are diminishing Him too.

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This message is a reply to:
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ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 86 of 101 (356683)
10-15-2006 12:35 PM

Reply to: Message 84 by GDR
10-15-2006 10:43 AM

GDR writes:

I'm only talking about those who consciously plan to have children.

So you're assuming the conclusion: God must have consciously planned to create us - therefore He had a purpose?

Many people decide not to have children....

And many people have children without making a concious decision. Why not God?

My view is that we have them, as we sub-consciously have a need for a recipient of our love and we hope to be loved and needed in return.

So God created us out of "need"?

I have a hunch that the creation of the universe was a pretty large undertaking even for God.

And my basic point is that your hunch might well be wrong.

If I try to build a whole town by myself, that is a huge undertaking - one that might not be fulfilled. If I try to build one house by myself, that is more doable. If I try to build a sandwich by myself... that's something I do every day.

How does the scale of your God compare to the scale of His creation? The more you try to "divine"

His "purpose" - or even assume that He had a purpose, the more you diminish Him.

Edited by Ringo, : @#$% spelling.

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	Message 84 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 10:43 AM		GDR has replied

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	Message 87 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 4:30 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 88 of 101 (356727)
10-15-2006 4:44 PM

Reply to: Message 87 by GDR
10-15-2006 4:30 PM

GDR writes:

I don't for the life of me see how God is diminished by having purpose.

I didn't say that. You diminish the concept of God by suggesting that you can "understand" His purpose, by suggesting that He "must" have had a purpose.

Creation requires a conscious decision.

Not at all. Much of creativity involves "noticing" what happens accidentally. Creation from "scratch" is almost diametrically opposed to working from a blueprint.

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	Message 87 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 4:30 PM		GDR has replied

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	Message 89 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 5:03 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 90 of 101 (356729)
10-15-2006 5:17 PM

Reply to: Message 89 by GDR
10-15-2006 5:03 PM

GDR writes:

I'm curious as to how you create something from scratch without it being a conscious decision.

That's like saying, "I'm curious as to how you can ride a horse without ice cream."

You have two separate concepts there - creation and conscious decision. If you think there's a connection, you'll have to explain it more thoroughly.

I am saying though that if I have to decide between purpose/no purpose the argument for purpose is far more compelling.

Yes, I get that that is your opinion. I just haven't seen that "compelling" argument in this thread. You admitted in Message 87 that you are assuming a purpose. I don't see how an assumption is a "compelling" argument.

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	Message 89 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 5:03 PM		GDR has replied

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	Message 91 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 5:53 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 92 of 101 (356734)
10-15-2006 6:14 PM

Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
10-15-2006 5:53 PM

GDR writes:

Can you give me an example of anyone who with intelligence created something without conscious thought?

Almost every artist who ever lived.

Ever hear of unconscious thought? I would almost define creativity as an accumulation of unconscious thoughts. The only time that conscious thought is used at all is in choosing which "accidents" to keep.

If I recall correctly, you are willing to accept evolution. There is no conscious thought in how we developed from chemical to cell to human. Even the selection of the lucky accidents was not done by conscious thought.

Empirically, at least, there is no need for conscious thought in the whole "creation" process.

Creation requires something to be done on purpose and if it is done on purpose then it has to be done with purpose.

There's a difference between "on purpose" and "with purpose". I can take a brush in hand on purpose, but with no purpose in mind but to paint, to create. Similarly, God could have snapped His fingers on purpose to get the ball rolling, but with no purpose in mind.

Now you can say that is all based on assumption but if that is the case then what can we know that isn't assumption.

For one thing, I know it isn't assumption that I can create with no "purpose" in mind. I do it all the time.

I don't see why you think God can't.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 91 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 5:53 PM		GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 93 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 6:22 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 94 of 101 (356739)
10-15-2006 6:38 PM

Reply to: Message 93 by GDR
10-15-2006 6:22 PM

GDR writes:

It still however took conscious thought to sit down and start painting or composing.

It's a far cry from "deciding to sit down" to claiming that God had a "purpose" in creating us.

Can you give me an example?

Sorry, I don't have anything in digital format, if that's what you mean.
(Still in the 20th century, technology-wise.

)

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	Message 93 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 6:22 PM		GDR has replied

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	Message 95 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 6:43 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 96 of 101 (356745)
10-15-2006 6:59 PM

Reply to: Message 95 by GDR
10-15-2006 6:43 PM

GDR writes:

I was just asking for you to give an account of something that you created without purpose.

Have you ever doodled? An artist is basically just a doodler with an ego.

Somebody who works to a plan is a technician, not an artist. There is little creativity in "purpose".

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	Message 95 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 6:43 PM		GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 97 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 7:09 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 443 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 98 of 101 (356754)
10-15-2006 7:17 PM

Reply to: Message 97 by GDR
10-15-2006 7:09 PM

GDR writes:

I don't see you or the universe as being the Divine equivalent of a doodle. Do you?

Yes. I certainly see that as a possibility.

The "bigger" God is, the more difference there is between Him and us, the more insignificant we are, the less likelihood of "purpose" in our creation. Humility denies purpose.

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	Message 97 by GDR, posted 10-15-2006 7:09 PM		GDR has replied

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