Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,916 Year: 4,173/9,624 Month: 1,044/974 Week: 3/368 Day: 3/11 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Jesus Lie?
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3078 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 62 of 65 (438497)
12-04-2007 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
11-16-2007 2:21 PM


Not relating to this particular angle, but do you think it was at all possible that Jesus could tell a lie?
After the Resurrection, Jesus said all authority in heaven and Earth had been given unto Him.
When you have this much power given, it presupposes the Recipient to have been morally perfect. Considering the miracles Jesus performed and the power demonstrated, there is no motive to lie - about anything.
Either the original Apostles and disciples lied about Jesus or they told the gospel truth. Cataclysmic personal change for the better, in each case, says they told the truth because a lie seldom changes anyone for better.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:21 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Legend, posted 12-05-2007 4:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3078 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 64 of 65 (438664)
12-05-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Legend
12-05-2007 4:36 PM


1) we don't really know what the original Apostles and disciples said about Jesus. We have some writings purporting to be from them but there is reasonable suspicion (in John's case a near certainty) that the disciples weren't the gospel authors.
All this is is an assumption contrary to the evidence. Who would assume that the N.T. authors were not the original Apostles and disciples?
If I had to guess, logic says Atheists and evolutionists. I would bet that Legend is one or both which explains the evidence denying assumption.
2) Assuming, for argument's sake, that the gospels were indeed written by the disciples, your position that they either lied or told the truth is a false dichotomy. They could have been honestly mistaken, deluded, deceived or a dozen other things in-between the absolutes of lie and truth.
Again, we have an assumption that the before and after nature of each Apostle, as conveyed in the textual evidence, and in other historical evidence, is false. The sources do not allow anything but a lie or truth option because the claims are so far fetched they are either true or a huge conspiratorial lie.
There is no evidence for the ad hoc options asserted by Legend.
3) We have no reason to believe that the disciples experienced "cataclysmic personal change for the better" other than their own -alleged- word.
All this is is an assumption that says the evidence is not evidence and that everyone lied (which Legend denied to be an option just above). The evidence in total shows cataclysmic change for each Apostle. This is why the only options are truth or conspiratorial lie. Since the N.T. is the most revered and time tested piece of literature ever written, whose authors are respected by hundreds of millions of persons, who testify to the truth written therein, and since 2000 years of scholarship has ratified the veracity of these scriptures, we can see these facts demonstrated by the "evidence" of Legend: assumptions and suppositions that the evidence is not evidence. Of course it almost goes without saying: assumptions and suppositions are not evidence, they are in these cases the word of Atheists and evolutionists, persons who have a vested interest and ulterior motive in seeing the Bible to appear false.
In short, said assumptions are a compliment, if there was any evidence they would not be needed.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Legend, posted 12-05-2007 4:36 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Legend, posted 12-06-2007 6:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024